Author Topic: Another LED monkey business  (Read 2418 times)
merc
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Another LED monkey business « on: April 18, 2014, 03:54:57 PM » Author: merc
I don't want to be against LEDs under all circumstances, but this is really a bad joke.  >:(

Streetlight LED lamp Polestar H.30

Translation from Czech:
Lumens(LM): 2250
Replacement for a conventional light source(W): 120W
(Similar comparison is also with other wattages.)

If someone buys this s__t for the price that is equal to the usual price of 75 pieces (!!!) of Philips HPL-N 125W, what do they get? Only about 36% of one HPL-N 125W luminous flux. (And the MVs are going to be banned due to low efficiency.)

The point is that they are giving impression that you pay for an "ultra efficient" (in fact, 75lm/W) light source (that will supply you with the light of the 120W incandescent...). But do you replace incandescents in the street lights? Aren't there rather MVs or HPSs giving much more light if their power is 120W?

A final note: Several LED street lights were installed in our town in 2009/2010. At the beginning, their performance was poor. I think there were 30x 1W LEDs in one lantern. Four years after, most of them didn't work at all. The rest was so bad, that you had to go directly under that light to see if it works or not.
Fortunately, our council didn't want to make that mistake again. There are 36W CFLs at the former LED places and the light is much better now.
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funkybulb
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 04:49:33 PM » Author: funkybulb
I have notice this Green star LED in San Antonio Texas
I found out japan using these american built unit as well
It a joke 108 watts  they are dim no way it fully replaces
250 watt High pressure sodium fixtures
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #2 on: April 19, 2014, 01:58:41 AM » Author: dor123
This LED lamp remainds most of the corn LED lamps, commonly used in outdoor lighting, and most of them can cause an electric shock when touching the lamp when it is energized.
This is all a Cartle that began by Philips and Cree and backed up by government entities. Thats why I declared a boycott on Cree and Philips, and hope that they WILL go bankrupt.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 08:23:52 AM by dor123 » Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

merc
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #3 on: April 19, 2014, 02:19:44 PM » Author: merc
Yes, we will have to wait until the accident and crime rate increase due to poor street lighting, caused by those "miracuously" efficient LEDs.

Yet another example from the same e-shop. Industrial light Halos C.120 .
Luminous flux: 8400lm
Power consumption: 120W
CRI: >75%

That's only 70 lm/W.
There is probably a low-end COB you can buy under 10 USD when bought wholesale (my guess). The price of one lantern? Approx. 630 USD. (!!!)

And again: "Replacement for a 400W conventional light source". I cannot imagine incandescents in factory halls in the last 50 years(?).

For example, when you replace MASTER HPI Plus 400W/645 (and this is not the top efficiency source) you had in your factory hall with this "HALOS", the luminous flux drops from 32500 lm down to 8400lm.
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randacnam7321
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 04:34:01 AM » Author: randacnam7321
And of course the whole fixture has to be replaced when anything in it dies.  There is a reason why lamps and any auxiliary components have been designed for ease of replacement for only the entire history of electric lighting.  They will die sooner or later.
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Medved
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 06:55:48 AM » Author: Medved
There is a reason why lamps and any auxiliary components have been designed for ease of replacement for only the entire history of electric lighting.  They will die sooner or later.

The reason was, the lamps had way shorter life than the rest (rated lamp life was no more than 6000hours when most of the "traditional" lamp formats were born, the longer life came only afterwards, when the standards were already in place), so frequent lamp replacement was anticipated.

Once the lifetime of all components is about the same, you will need all parts to be replaceable in the similar manner, so the replaceability would make any sense at all. So it is better to replace the complete fixture on the site and then do the repair comfortably in a well equipped shop, than try to fiddle with the components on site.
And from that perspective, the individual components of all LED lanterns I've seen are even easier to replace than usual HID ballast...

But if I recall the experience when operating MV installations here, the fact the lamp was "easy to unscrew" was a pet peeve by itself: It caused more than half of field failures (not working poles) - the lamps simply just get loose by thermal cycles and because of that loose contact. Otherwise the setup would be perfectly working, just the loose lamp makes the lantern not lighting...
Having the lamps hard wired would save a lot of service crew trips, even when the relamping at the EOL will cost a bit more labor.

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merc
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #6 on: April 20, 2014, 08:17:05 AM » Author: merc
Once the lifetime of all components is about the same, you will need all parts to be replaceable in the similar manner, so the replaceability would make any sense at all. So it is better to replace the complete fixture on the site and then do the repair comfortably in a well equipped shop, than try to fiddle with the components on site.
And from that perspective, the individual components of all LED lanterns I've seen are even easier to replace than usual HID ballast...

This BITIS from another manufacturer is much better than that "HALOS" I wrote about earlier (good efficiency of 114 lm/W, power auto-adjustment based on the ambient light, each light has its own IP address to be programmed(dimmed) individually etc.)
But if you look into the product sheet (in CZ, EN, DE) in downloads section, there's an explicit warning:
The lamps cannot be changed in this luminaire.

And I don't think that "the lifetime of all components is about the same". The metal case can last literally for centuries while the LEDs only several thousands or tens of thousands hours, depending on the chip quality and the heatsink used.
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Medved
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #7 on: April 20, 2014, 04:13:05 PM » Author: Medved
The "can not be replaced" means it is not supposed to be serviced on site, but it could be well repaired in the shop.
And for the case, I've seen many fixtures, where the case was what have died as first, due to corrosion. The water then damaged the socket, what then directly caused the light to stop working.
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merc
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 06:58:53 AM » Author: merc
The "can not be replaced" means it is not supposed to be serviced on site, but it could be well repaired in the shop.
Technically, yes. Today. But I'm afraid that some 5+ years after, it could be difficult or even impossible to find compatible LEDs (either because of the dimensions or electrical parameters). In case of HIDs, there are standardized bases and voltages/wattages, thus the replacement has been easy.
But in case of LEDs, there's a mess of types and a constant development.
Moreover, we live in the so-called "throw-away" society where things aren't designed to be fixed. The service prices not seldom exceed the prices for the new goods.

And for the case, I've seen many fixtures, where the case was what have died as first, due to corrosion. The water then damaged the socket, what then directly caused the light to stop working.
Yes, but I'm thinking of a normal, dry and non-aggressive environment.
Those "HALOS" in question have their case made from aluminium. ("BITIS" cases are manufactured from a lacquered steel sheet.)

I think that the main problem here could be the dust covering the heatsink. When those lighting units are left unattended for several years, the heatsink could stop working and the LEDs blow out.
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Medved
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Re: Another LED monkey business « Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 04:26:06 PM » Author: Medved
Electrically I doubt there will be any problem.
The current ratings are quite well standardized (0.35-0.5-0.7-1.4-2-2.8-...A), the voltage does not matter as much, because most drivers are able to cover quite wide voltage range, so with just few types you can cover almost all the range. And unlike with HID's, you may always use lower current ballast for higher current rated LED's, it will just yield longer lifetime.
And most of the failures are in the ballast anyway (mainly voltage surges,...), while the ballasts are quite easy to replace - you are not limited by exact shape or so.
And regarding the dirt: Properly designed fixture feature some kind of thermal protection, to ensure nothing could ever overheat. The recent ones do not shut down the fixture, but reduce the power so, the temperature does not exceed safe limits, while the fixture stays still somehow operational (so the only consequence of e.g. unusually hot weather is just lower brightness; it's called "thermal fold-back").

And for the corrosion: All fixtures I've seen suffer from excessive corrosion after about 10 years, what is about the same as the life rating decent LED modules (of course, all will have lower lumen output and few chips from the array may not work, but still the overall output shall be above the 70% lumen limit), so replacing the complete head after that time would be required anyway.

And don't dream about the aluminum endurance: In my experience it tend to deteriorate even sooner than steel. The main reason is the different type of corrosion: It is not that visible as the rust on the steel, but unlike the rusted steel, it looses the structural strength way quicker. And because in it's early stages the corrosion is nearly not visible, it frequently remains undetected and so untreated...
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