Author Topic: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection  (Read 10299 times)
dor123
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It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « on: November 17, 2014, 07:28:14 AM » Author: dor123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsCeHz_Ezpc

In this video, Dieselducy compared glow starter and Tabletek Fastlux and Arlen Pulsestarter EFS120 (The starters I use in my 2x6W bug-zapper), on an EOL F8T5.
While the instant start Tabletec Fastlux, shutting down the lamp, the Arlen EFS120 seems to let the lamp to rectify continuously, so it looks like my EFS120 in my bug-zapper, won't shut down the lamps, when one of them will be EOL and so stress the ballast.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:43:08 AM by dor123 » Logged

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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 10:20:09 AM » Author: Medved
I don't think there is no EOL protection in the starter.
I think there is some misunderstanding on what the "EOL protection" does (and can do):
We are talking just about the starter, so a swicth used to bypass the tube for the electrode preheat and then by interrupting the current causing a voltage spike for lamp ignition. So the only thing that can do is to switch ON or OFF, nothing else.
So what the electronic starter does:
It preheats the lamp. No difference towards normal operation.
It starts to generate the ignition pulses. Normally it ignites the lamp, the voltage get limited by the lamp, so  the starter remains OFF.
With an EOL lamp there would always be some voltage, so without anything changing, the starter would just continue to generate the pulses.
But for that there is a timer, which when expires, forces the starter OFF even when the voltage is still above the threshold.
What that means? If you assume a lamp, which just does not want to hold the arc, it just extinguish and keep all the circuit without any current (except the voltage detector circuit in the starter).
But when some lamp is able to hold the arc, there is nothing the starter could do about that, it has no ways to shut that lamp OFF.
Note the lamp remained burning (however, I would guess it flickers wildly as well) when he remover the starter. It was exactly the same situation: The lamp hold it's arc without the aid of the starter.

The difference between the two starters is just the time settings: The first starter gave up the starting attempts before the faulty cathode with naked tungsten reaches the emission temperature of the naked tungsten, so as the starter switches OFF, the lamp just extinguish.
The second have the time out longer, so keep igniting the lamp for longer time. That means the internal structures on the faulty cathode heat up to higher temperature, so high they reach some emission just by that and so keep the arc burning even when the starter switches OFF.
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 11:22:06 AM » Author: dor123
Thanks you.
But if this is the case, how several anti-cycling ignitors, can shut-down cycling HID lamps by themselves like in this video ?
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 12:14:31 PM » Author: Medved
They can not, they just stop igniting them.

In many cases, when the arc is about to die, the ignitor activity could help to keep that arc alive (it actually restrikes it after each mains current zero cross). Without this help the lamp just extinguish.
So once the ignitor stop pulsing, it may appear like it was the ignitor, what shut the lamp down.
In fact it was keeping the lamp alive longer than it would stay alone and then just stops with that aid.
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 12:44:41 PM » Author: dor123
Update: @Medved: Regarding to your statement that the ignitor that it can't shut down cycling HID lamps, I think that you are right only partially.

http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-103469

I today went to these Screder Sepales (Which Qiryat Ata rotated the lamppost, after it has been tilted by winds), to try counting the times the now right lantern dims before extingushing, after noticing in all of my videos, that it always extingushes after 8 dimming periods.

You can see in the video here, that the lantern dims regularly 6 times (Like you described that the ignitor restrikes the arc after each mains current zero cross), but after then its dims to 50% brightness for 10 secs and then extingush, as if the ignitor indeed trying to extingush the arc and not keeping it alive. This specific 50% dimming, is unique to this ignitor in this lantern (Tridonic ZRM ES/CT anti-cycle ignitor), and can't occurs in lanterns that have regular superimposed ignitors (I've seen AEG Koffer 100 and an AEG/Philips Triangel with superimposed ignitors, that dimming several times slightly, and after several dimmings, they simply extingushing without any stronger than usual dimming like here, and restriking.

So I think that in the case of the seventh dimming, the ignitor indeed trys to extingush the arc, and not to keep it alive.
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #5 on: January 24, 2015, 03:34:29 AM » Author: Medved
To extinguish the lamp that itself wants to light, the igniter would have to contain some series switch. And that would bring so many mainly power dissipation and reliability problems, I doubt it would be ever used.
The behavior you describe could easily be explained in the other way around:
The lamp is won out beyond it's ability to reignite after mains zero cross by itself, so needs the igniter aid for that. With many ignitors it means the lamp appear to continue burning normally.
But the ignitor electronic still sees the pulsing activity, so the timers run.
Now it depends, how the timers are arranged:
To just prevent cycling, a time limit (usually 5..15 minutes) is enforced for cumulative ignition attempts since the power up. The idea is, when the lamp cycles, after few cycles it expires, so the ignitor does not restart the lamp. If the lamp extinguishes due to random mains drop (not so deep or long to reset the timer), the time for one or two such restarts is shorter than the time out, so it restarts the lamp. But when this type of cutout timer is combined with the pulser design capable to hold the arc, the lamp just shut down after burning for that time without any cycling. So it may appear like the ignitor shuts down "normally" burning lamp (however it was already using the ignitor aid).

Some ignitors have second timer, not allowing the contyinuous ignition burst to last longer than few seconds (normally way sufficient to ignite the lamp) and when it expires, wait 5 or 15 minutes before the next burst. The intention is to prevent the cooling lamp from reheating by the random flashes and let it cool down so, the reignition would be sucessful. These ignitor will then always cycle, as the aid would be limited for the few seconds.

So indeed, different ignitor designs may still behave in way different ways, but still none of them really has to be able to shut down the lamp. I would even see no reason for that: If the lamp burns normally, why to shut it down?
Even the MH bulbs, which are going to explode, either start to cycle or need the aid for the arc for some time before doing so, or the cause for the explosion is not electrically observable in time anyway...
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 06:41:58 PM » Author: Liam
The dimming is when the lamp wants to cycle. When i fit a cycling lamp to my Tridonic Anti cycle igniter the lamp dims a bit and slight flickers then goes to full brightness. During the time the lamp is dimming and flickering you can her the igniter pulsing then stops when the lamp goes back to full brightness.
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 05:43:54 AM » Author: dor123
The dimming is when the lamp wants to cycle. When i fit a cycling lamp to my Tridonic Anti cycle igniter the lamp dims a bit and slight flickers then goes to full brightness. During the time the lamp is dimming and flickering you can her the igniter pulsing then stops when the lamp goes back to full brightness.
@Liam: The dimming you describe: I've seen it also in an AEG Koffer 100 and one AEG/Philips Triangel, with a regular superimposed ignitor. What that special with the Tridonic "Anti-Cycle" ignitor, is that before the lamp extingush and the ignitor gives up, there is one or two periods, in which the lamp strongly flickering and drops to less than 30% brightness for 10 sec or even more, enough to cool it down, so if the lamp regain in the first time, it looks less reddish orange and more pinkish white, as it cooled down. These one or two high dimming periods, are unique to this ignitor (Never seen them in regular superimposed and 50/100hz semi-parallel ignitors), and I don't know why they are happening.
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 03:00:41 PM » Author: Medved
The ignitor is trying to support the lamp (so instead of extinguishing, it just dims down) for some time (in an attempt to recover the lamp operation after some mains glitch or so; with many ignitors the lamp will just extinguish at that moment) and then, when the lamp does not want to sustain lit on it's own, the ignitor just stops that support and so the lamp really extinguishes.
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Re: It looks like the Arlen Pulsestarters haven't EOL protection « Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 10:27:51 PM » Author: dor123
OK Thanks.
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