Author Topic: Remote dimming of HIDs?  (Read 4022 times)
hannahs lights
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #15 on: August 01, 2016, 12:44:16 PM » Author: hannahs lights
We don't use a lot take right now for instance the only load is a TV digibox a VCR both on standby the electronics in the boiler  the microwaves clock and that it even our fridge and freezer are off although they come on and off as they please
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Ash
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #16 on: August 01, 2016, 02:00:40 PM » Author: Ash
The small stuff don't matter much for the differences - Everyone have approximately the same appliances and use them approximately comparable..

Its mosly heating/cooling that matters : How is the house heated/cooled ? How is it insulated ? What is the climate ? How is hot water heated ? Not everywhere those things are electrical
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Medved
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #17 on: August 01, 2016, 02:32:36 PM » Author: Medved
The main and most expensive problems with the "island" electrical system is the need for energy storage. And that is usually the limiting factor of the usable power. Usually it does not suffice for more than just a lighting and some entertainment (TV, radio,...), the rest should then use other energy sources (only the water may be heated by the solar power).

Plus the generators rarely give off their rated power - just because the weather does not allow that. So a 1kW rated wind turbine on a roof will give off barely 100W over the day and nothing at night. The solar panels perform a bit better, but not that much. Their advantage is no moving parts and being easier to conceal the roof (with flat roof they are not visible from the ground level at all). Their disadvantage of higher cost is already many years not true, mainly for such low power applications.
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hannahs lights
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #18 on: August 08, 2016, 06:37:48 PM » Author: hannahs lights
Ash we have gas heating for the radiators and hot water its an instant heat system no ballast tank in UK its called a combi boiler main advantage are that there are no water tanks. The insulation is a few years old so very efficient before that there was no insulation at all. The only electric heating we need is in my shack and also in my sisters room at the top of the house. At the moment the weather is very hot a couple of days ago it was 80F now its more like 65F so still toasty
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Lodge
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18W Goldeye / 52W R&C LED front door lighting


Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #19 on: February 27, 2017, 11:21:06 PM » Author: Lodge
Didn't know where to ask..will try here.

I understand how it's possible to control & dim LED systems from a central office or public works building. However, for sodium lighting, curfew & relighting before dawn I can understand but how is it possible to "dim" HPS lighting? Be as technical as possible.

It's actually very simple, you use stepped level dimming, on a HPS you ideally use a CWA ballast and a dual capacitor and relay, yes most manufactures of ballasts sell dual and even triple caps and you simply use the relay to either switch between two caps or one ( or three in a tri-level dimming system ) the only catch is you have to warm the light up to 100% on startup for like 15 to 30 min before dimming, and you shouldn't dim more then about 50% or you will impact the lamp life and at 50% it's like a 10% hit and at 40% it's like a 90% hit, you get the idea under 50% is bad, very bad, and you also need another wire for the relay so you can select bright or dim.. 

What type of ballast are you using ? (model numbers)  lots of stock models work, and sometimes you can even re-use the original fixtures ballast , generally most lights only need the relay and a second cap, and what sort of wattage are you looking at, and do you need 50% dimming or brighter like 60% / 70% maybe I could draw something up yo give you an idea of what your looking at.. 
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Medved
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #20 on: February 28, 2017, 03:21:21 AM » Author: Medved
It's actually very simple, you use stepped level dimming, on a HPS you ideally use a CWA ballast and a dual capacitor and relay, yes most manufactures of ballasts sell dual and even triple caps and you simply use the relay to either switch between two caps or one ( or three in a tri-level dimming system ) the only catch is you have to warm the light up to 100% on startup for like 15 to 30 min before dimming, and you shouldn't dim more then about 50% or you will impact the lamp life and at 50% it's like a 10% hit and at 40% it's like a 90% hit, you get the idea under 50% is bad, very bad, and you also need another wire for the relay so you can select bright or dim.. 

What type of ballast are you using ? (model numbers)  lots of stock models work, and sometimes you can even re-use the original fixtures ballast , generally most lights only need the relay and a second cap, and what sort of wattage are you looking at, and do you need 50% dimming or brighter like 60% / 70% maybe I could draw something up yo give you an idea of what your looking at.. 

Maybe one note to add: Mainly when the lamps approach their EOL, they are more likely to extinguish when the power is suddenly reduced. So whenever possible, it is always better to implement multiple steps (e.g. 100%->85%->70%->50%; the 100%->85% is intentionally the smallest, as there the arc is least stable) and change them gradually to let the lamp cool down between those steps. In fact this is the main limitation, why you should not go below 50% (the other limitation, the thermal instability, usually allow even 30% power without falling into a low pressure mode).
The thing is, with lowered current the cathodes cool down and so the cathode fall and reignition spikes increase, so requires higher ballast OCV headroom to maintain the arc. After some time the arctube cools down, the pressure drops, so does the voltage in the anode column part of the arc, so brig back the required voltage headroom.
Now if you drop the current immediately with large step, the cathodes cool down way quicker than the amalgam reservoir, creating a time window, where the OCV requirements are higher (and when the lamp may easier extinguish). With multiple smaller steps you let the arctube temperature to drop together with the cathode temperature, so there remains more OCV margin to maintain the arc.

If you use the voltage reduction dimming method, the gradual reduction is really a must, because with that you are decreasing the ballast OCV as well, so the voltage headroom gets reduced two fold (so you really need to let the lamp to cool down for each small step)...
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Kappa7
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #21 on: March 02, 2017, 06:51:33 AM » Author: Kappa7
Here the electricity for homes is around 5..6CZK (30 $cents) per kWhr, but for the road lighting the tariffs use to be way lower (below 1CZK per KWhr), because it used the power where was no load on the grid.

However with the wind and solar power craziness that may change: Both solar, as well as wind power generation does not work at nights (here the wind is mostly really directly tied with the sun, the far reaching 24hour/day winds common on the sea and shores do not reach here), while many industries are working 24hour/day...

Solar power is not crazy. It just can't be the only source of electrical power, but can be nicely coupled with hydroelectric power plant to compensate from the power variation during night.

The price of solar panel as become also very cheap (about 1$ per W, probably less for large installation). I remember some years ago when the price was 7 times higher!
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Ash
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #22 on: March 02, 2017, 07:28:09 AM » Author: Ash
Some industries work 24 hours, but most of them dont. The time when solar generates the most power coincides with the time when the demand on the grid is at its highest
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Medved
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #23 on: March 02, 2017, 04:14:59 PM » Author: Medved
Solar or wind power may become uuseful, but way in the future, by far not now. And the reason is by far not the solar panel/installation cost, but the way, how the power grid is managed.
The problem with wind and solar is, they can not be controlled (except wasting the available power).
Because in the network the generated and consumed power have to exactly match all the time at every moment, you need either large useful loads capable to adopt the instant power consumption based on the actual network balance, or you need a fast response power generation capacity to swalloow all the imbalance variation.
And there the problem is, the fast response generation is either very limited with the available energy reserve (hydro plants need big lakes and the possibility to considerably vary the amount of passing water - both are highly problematic for the ecosystems around), or are extremely inefficient (all the thermal based plants, gas turbines,...). All the high efficiency technologies have the high efficiency only on the rated power and very slow response.

Because the present grid system is designed around the use of all the controls on the generation side, the uncontrollable wind and solar means the need for way higher capacity in the fast response generation, so you have to move the power from the high efficiency plants to the fast response, low efficiency ones.
So even when those fast response ones deliver way less energy, their impact is the same as was the impact of the high efficiency ones without the solar/wind power. So bottom line with the solar/wind power you do reduce the amount of energy from the "classical" plants, but you do not reduce their impact on the environment. So high costs and no gain.

On the other hand if you are able to transfer more of the grid balance control onto the load side, you use that to stabilize the grid, so suffice with way lower fast response power reserve, so you gain quite significant reduction of the environment impact. Still without any solar/wind or any other similar.

Only after we will be able to fully stabilize the grid by just the controlled load and so get rid of all the inefficient fast response generation plants, only then the solar/winds will bring any benefit in really reducing the pollution. Before that it is just a plain overly expensive greenbrainers wet dream toy, but nothing really helping anything.

And what we see is huge opposition against any attempts to utilize more of the load side control ("that grid responding fridge is too expensive", "I don't want anyone controlling my heater at all",...), but big applause for the "green power"...
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Ash
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #24 on: March 02, 2017, 04:37:33 PM » Author: Ash
The way how the Sun goes up and down is predictable. It does not go up or down by surprise... Clouds dont cover or uncover the entire country by surprise either, unless you disturb Moltres Zapdos or Articuno..

The only place where i see the Gas turbines becoming required is for short periods in the dawn and dusk, when the Sun going up and down changes the solar generation faster than the Coal plants can ramp up/down

Is this (assumed) relatively small use of Gas in the morning/evening really that bad that it overpowers the benefit of using the Sun all the day ?



Over here there is an arrangement of using Sea Water desalination plants as the variable load, which is controlled by the power company
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Kappa7
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #25 on: March 03, 2017, 02:02:50 AM » Author: Kappa7
In Switzerland there is a new high power (1450MW) subterrain hydro power plant that generate-absorb power especially made to balance the grid power:
http://inhabitat.com/subterranean-hydropower-plant-hidden-in-the-swiss-alps-to-power-1-million-homes/

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