Author Topic: Remote dimming of HIDs?  (Read 4018 times)
lights*plus
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Remote dimming of HIDs? « on: July 27, 2016, 04:12:04 PM » Author: lights*plus
Didn't know where to ask..will try here.

I understand how it's possible to control & dim LED systems from a central office or public works building. However, for sodium lighting, curfew & relighting before dawn I can understand but how is it possible to "dim" HPS lighting? Be as technical as possible.
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Ash
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #1 on: July 27, 2016, 04:25:55 PM » Author: Ash
Electronic ballasts that vary the output power based on some signal

Magnetic ballast + relay that changes tap on the ballast, or that connects an extra low value inductor in series with the main one (they are connected in series allways, but for full power the extra one is shorted out by the relay)

The signal can be transmitted as :

 - Line voltge on/off on a separate Phase wire. So there are 2 Phase wires - A live full night and B live part night. Lanterns that stay on full night are powered from Phase A, lanterns that go off late in the night from Phase B, and lanterns that dim are powered from Phase A and relay controlled from Phase B

 - Ripple or digital signal on the power line. In case of Electronic ballast, the decoding logic may be either inside the ballast or as separate component. With Magnetic it can be some module that also contains the relay

 - RF signal with some module that receives it. Some RF modules are implemented in the shape of a Photocell and plug in the Photocell socket
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Medved
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #2 on: July 28, 2016, 12:25:04 AM » Author: Medved
Here a common method for HPS lit main roads (where the higher level is required at rush evening/morning hours, but less light during the quiet middle night) is to just reduce the supply voltage.
A stretch of lamps (usually on major roads) is connected via a dimming cabinet, which contains an autotransformer with many taps and some switching mechanism (relays, few thyristors,... and some control). When the stretch is supposed to be dimmed at idle hours at night, the voltage gets slowly reduced, till it reaches the low power state. The reduction has to be slow enough with small enough steps, so the lamp does not extinguish on the reduced voltage and cools down before next step is administered.
The literature says the maximum step should be below 5V, the permissible overall reduction is 30% in voltage and the transition should be spread over at least half a hour. Of course, the lamps have to start and stabilize at full rated voltage for at least 15 minutes, that applies even when there was some voltage dip, which is expected to extinguish some lamps (the controlled is not able to directly sense that, because there are dozens of lanterns connected to it's output, it just monitors the mains and if it detects such dip, switch to full power for 20 minutes and then starts the power reduction sequence again).
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #3 on: July 28, 2016, 03:25:55 AM » Author: lights*plus
Very interesting. Ok, now if a town or municipality decides to start dimming existing old HPS installations, they need to come to a sector and replace all the existing switch cabinets with the mini photocontrols to "special dimming" cabinets? And also these cabinets must have the ability to be remotely controlled or does the cabinet on the curb can handle the dimming, I suppose autonomously?
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Medved
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #4 on: July 29, 2016, 05:25:02 PM » Author: Medved
Yes, it is part of the road stretch control cabinet. But compare to the individual dimmable ballast systems, this does not need any other connection to the fixtures than just their power line, so it is the easiest way to implement such dimming control. And because it is there only one for the whole road stretch, there is quite some budget available to make it more "intelligent" (tied to the city traffic flow monitoring/control system,...).

The cabinet is most likely to some extent autonomous, but it is connected to the general traffic management system (that is partly automated, but to quite big extend just a bunch of people behind the control console deciding how to manage the traffic flow - they control not only streetlight dimming, but as well as crossing signal direction preferences,...). Generally it is made to respond to how the the actual traffic evolves over the day than really a fixed schedule, but if left ignored, it follows it's preprogramming.

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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #5 on: July 29, 2016, 10:29:51 PM » Author: lights*plus
This is way cool. Thanks Medved! I live in an area where dimming is not employed at all. As well, I don't know of any other region that dimming is used in any part of Canada, but I need to research this further.

The barrier may be the incredibly low electric rates in many areas of Canada..for example here in Quebec, for starters I pay just $0.057 CAD/kwh, then it jumps to $0.075/kwh for consumption above 30kwh/day. I believe these are among the lowest rates on earth if not the lowest.

And 1 CAD = 0.75 USD! So the rates quoted are $0.043 USD/kwh & $0.057 USD/kwh respectively).
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #6 on: July 29, 2016, 10:32:19 PM » Author: wattMaster
This is way cool. Thanks Medved! I live in an area where dimming is not employed at all. As well, I don't know of any other region that dimming is used in any part of Canada, but I need to research this further.

The barrier may be the incredibly low electric rates in many areas of Canada..for example here in Quebec, for starters I pay just $0.057 CAD/kwh, then it jumps to $0.075/kwh for consumption above 30kwh/day. I believe these are among the lowest rates on earth if not the lowest.

And 1 CAD = 0.75 USD! So the rates quoted are $0.043 USD/kwh & $0.057 USD/kwh respectively).
That's crazy cheap electricity! :o
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #7 on: July 29, 2016, 10:38:14 PM » Author: lights*plus
Many years ago I had a business establishment. The electric was higher, but still it was at about .10 $/kwh or .075 USD/kwh. But I guess it should be closer to the equivalent of 0.10 or 0.12 USD/kwh now.
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #8 on: July 30, 2016, 03:19:02 AM » Author: Medved
Here the electricity for homes is around 5..6CZK (30 $cents) per kWhr, but for the road lighting the tariffs use to be way lower (below 1CZK per KWhr), because it used the power where was no load on the grid.

However with the wind and solar power craziness that may change: Both solar, as well as wind power generation does not work at nights (here the wind is mostly really directly tied with the sun, the far reaching 24hour/day winds common on the sea and shores do not reach here), while many industries are working 24hour/day...
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #9 on: July 30, 2016, 04:05:38 AM » Author: Ash
How much wind which can be converted to electricity you have there ? (average power for turbine size & type)
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #10 on: July 30, 2016, 12:25:43 PM » Author: Medved
How much wind which can be converted to electricity you have there ? (average power for turbine size & type)

No idea about exact figures. The rated power of a single tower uses to be in 10MW range, but there is very rarely such strong and steady wind to really reach that.
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #11 on: July 30, 2016, 12:49:50 PM » Author: Ash
I mean average over long periods, including the time of no wind. Also are there any small or even private towers in use ?
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Medved
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #12 on: July 30, 2016, 01:12:18 PM » Author: Medved
I mean average over long periods, including the time of no wind.

I have really no idea at all.
But financially they are very well off, mainly the solar panel owners - given the stupid greenbrainer laws here.


Also are there any small or even private towers in use ?

Not much. The thing is, a lower tower with just 10% of rated power output cost about 50% of the high one, but beside of the 1/10 rating, it can use only the lower layers of wind, where the air is slower and way more turbulent, so way less could be harvested from it. So even with the excessive support that makes no financial sense.

And if the question was about some roof top units with power in the 100'W till kW range, they are really just a hobby toys - build for just the reason of having fun of building them.
For real energetic use (now I talk about remote sites using just low power, where the power cable would be way more expensive) the solar panels "rule"...
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #13 on: July 31, 2016, 03:42:30 PM » Author: hannahs lights
Who uses 30 KWh a day! This last week we only used 37 KWh
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Re: Remote dimming of HIDs? « Reply #14 on: July 31, 2016, 09:44:31 PM » Author: lights*plus
Who uses 30 KWh a day! This last week we only used 37 KWh

37kwh in 7days is 5.3kwh/day, which is barely any use of electricity.

My typical conusmption is about 33 kwh/day for May&June, 36kwh/day for July&August, 30kwh/day for Sept&Oct, but it's 80 to 100 kwh/day from October through March (yep, baseboard heating) depending on the severity of winter.
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