Author Topic: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps  (Read 486 times)
BlueHalide
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Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « on: October 19, 2016, 09:40:35 PM » Author: BlueHalide
Ok guys, I am considering ordering one of these just out of curiosity as nothing like these lamps exists in the US market. Ive seen pics on here of the Philips 400w HPI-T plus 645 and it looks so different from the usual 400w MH lamps I know. The arc tube appears to be about the size of one in a 175w MH lamp and is lacking the white end paint, also the bright yellow halide salts in the pics when the lamp is cold and color temperature rating of 4500K is interesting. I do have a couple questions though, will I have any trouble running this on a pulse start 400w MH or HPS ballast? I see that this lamp is pulse start like most european lamps. The box says "runs on SON and mercury gear", so will the 400w HPS S51 ballast be the best option?

Heres the lamp, comes from China
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Philips-HPI-T-Plus-400W-645-E40-Metal-Halide-lamp-run-on-SON-and-Mercury-gear-/172368702574?hash=item2821f9ac6e:g:NzYAAOxyAc1SQvvj
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dor123
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #1 on: October 19, 2016, 11:30:38 PM » Author: dor123
These lamps at 220-240V runs on MV and HPS chokes + ignitor. On the HPS choke, it would have a shorter life than with MV choke, because of the higher loading on the HPS choke.
These lamps, being have a neon-argon penning gas, can be ignited by much lower voltage than the rest pulse-start MH lamps (750V ignitor is enough).
There are several members, including Philip Slawinski, which managed to operate this lamp on an M59 probe-start MH ballast without an ignitor at all.
You can also operate it with an M128 or M135 or M155 ballast for pulse-start MH lamp with ignitor, as the lamp don't require the HPS ballast for optimal performance (Compared to the Osram HQI-BT 400W/D, which would burn greenish if not operated on HPS ballast).
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #2 on: November 23, 2016, 10:38:24 PM » Author: lights*plus
I bought my two different HPI-T lamps from ebay. Came from Hungary or Poland can't remember but came very quickly in about a week. Both are 250w (a coated one and a clear tubular one) and I can fire them up with M58 with 310 OCV!
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Medved
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #3 on: November 24, 2016, 01:57:05 AM » Author: Medved
The US HPS specifications are far different from the European ones, so the "runs on HPS gear" written on an European market lamp is not relevant in the US at all.
The fact it is rated for "SON and mercury" means the lamp is running on both (I mean the European specs), but each of them means different operating specs - mercury gear means lower real power and higher CCT. But it means, with these parameters it should work on an US MV ballast (so the US 400W probe-MH one should be OK as well), with an added superimposed ignitor (an European type; the frequency difference is of no problem)...
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #4 on: November 24, 2016, 02:48:58 AM » Author: lights*plus
The HPI-T lamps are European/Middle-Easterern, and yes, they are never supposed to run on US HPS gear.

I have always wondered, however, WHY did Europe & Middle-East retain the original tri-salt recipe while tri-salt lamps are NEVER found in N. America? Was the scandium-sodium-mercury lamp easier to make? Or the patents are US? Whas the tri-salt In-Tl-Na lamps a European invention?
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lights*plus
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 03:04:08 AM » Author: lights*plus
So is it possible to run a 400w HPI-T on a 400w H33 ballast in N.America? Is the 750v superimposed ignitor ok for a 120volt tap?
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Medved
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #6 on: November 24, 2016, 05:05:52 PM » Author: Medved
I have always wondered, however, WHY did Europe & Middle-East retain the original tri-salt recipe while tri-salt lamps are NEVER found in N. America? Was the scandium-sodium-mercury lamp easier to make? Or the patents are US? Whas the tri-salt In-Tl-Na lamps a European invention?

It all started about the need to operate the MH's on just a series choke, so just 230V OCV ballasts in Europe. That have excluded the probe start MH's, as they need at least 300V or so (or an igniter). That is quite easy to reach with the CWA ballast, so the simpler probe start systems became the common place for the US market. The presence of the starting probe brought some complications as well - the electrolysis between two electrodes so close to each other (so with a voltage potential between them and a conductive environment, so either liquid halides or even the plasma, the electroders would get etched away by the electrolysis), plus the need to really ignite with just the starting probe and few 100's V, it brought some limitations to the gas fill. But generally the NaSc was the earliest, or at least one of the earliest usable mixes, while at that time its performance was very good for the US probe start system, so it became the standard there.

If an igniter is necessary for the 230V, it was then easier to design the igniter as a high voltage one and get rid of the starting probe in the burner. And that opened other possibilities for the burner designs (more compact, with less thermal losses, no electrolysis problems,...), so allowed to go to more efficient designs.And the different fill composition was one of the results as well. Plus the need to maintain the arc at just 220V OCV put another requirements to the fill (lower arc voltage being one of them), so the US NaSc would not be usable. All this led for the pulse start concept becoming the standard in the 230V world, together with the corresponding mixes.
Because the European MH systems were anyway more expensive than the US probe start ones, to get some market share, the makers had to offer better light quality and efficacy, so that lead to broader range of fill mixes (as the different makers were trying to improve the lamp design).
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #7 on: November 24, 2016, 10:36:34 PM » Author: lights*plus
Ok Medved, interesting. I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion; I thought that the first M-H lamps were with tri-salt fills and then the scandium-sodium. On this lamptech page, it says that the In-Tl-Na fill was the first, but both were probably fairly closely developed and marketed, and clearly, each continent followed a different path seperately for the reasons you pointed out. Thanks for the detail.
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #8 on: November 26, 2016, 02:53:37 AM » Author: Max
George, the tri-salt iodide mixture (i.e. NaI-InI3-TlI) was indeed the very first metal halide fill chemistry used in commercial lamps introduced in 1964 by GE in America (Multi-Vapor 400 and 1000 W) and by Radium in Europe (HRI 2000 W). It is only a few years later that Sylvania released the first metal halide lamps containing scandium: in 1966 a Na-Th-Sc iodide lamp was introduced by them in the USA and by A.E.I. (Thorn) in England (the latter benefited from a technology transfer from the former), followed in 1968 by the second generation of Metalarc lamps without thorium (thus, effectively the first Na-Sc lamp).

As Medved indicates, the nature of the current regulating gears used in America and in Europe had an important impact on the choice of salt fill chemistry for standard MH lamps. The aggressive and less chemically stable Na-Sc chemistry eventually prevailed in the USA (partly) because of the ubiquitous CWA ballast that permitted a longer lamp service life despite strong discharge and ignition voltage variation and changes over time. A higher (initial) lamp efficacy and color stability were also determining factors in this choice.

In Europe, the standard series-connected choke ballast on 230 V mains did not permit such a stable operation with early Na-Sc lamps (A.E.I. thorn initially released its Sc-filled lamps with an auto-transformer ballast for the 400 W model and specified its 1000 W model for a use on 380-415 V mains). As a result, in the mid-60s Philips and Osram focused their development efforts on the less aggressive and more chemically stable Na-Tl-In tri-salt fill chemistry, and worked on solving the low efficacy and poor color stability issues that plagued early lamps (and that led GE to eventually adopt Sylvania's Na-Sc chemistry). In the late 60s, Osram stopped using this salt mix in their medium-wattage lamps (i.e. < 2000 W) and switched over to the thallium-rare-earth fill chemistry that at the time delivered far superior light color quality and stability, with a similar efficacy. Philips stuck to the tri-salt fill chemistry, which was much easier to manage due to the lower affinity towards oxygen of these halide compounds (i.e. leading to much less quartz corrosion, and the possibility of having some sort of tungsten-halogen cycle), and significantly improved the performance of their HPI lamps over the years, eventually solving the initial problems that plagued the technology.

It is only in the mid 1990s that the sodium-scandium fill chemistry began to be used in standard general lighting MH lamps in Europe, an evolution permitted by a much improved control of the lamp chemistry which kept the lamp voltage variation and the increase in ignition voltage in check. Osram was mostly responsible for this re-introduction, and this occurred following their acquisition in '92-93 of GTE's Sylvania operation in the USA, which resulted in a significant knowledge transfer on the Na-Sc chemistry from Danvers to Munich. As a result, Osram developed elaborate Na-Sc-based fill chemistries for several of their lamps, ranging from the small 70 W HQI-TS Plus lamps, to large HQI-T 2000W S sources. Ironically, the performances of tri-salt lamps had improved so much that a decade later the Germans had mostly abandoned Sc-based fills in favor of Na-Tl-In in their neutral-white HQI lamps for the EU market (they kept on using the rare earth chemistry for daylight sources though).
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #9 on: November 26, 2016, 11:27:56 PM » Author: lights*plus
Thanks Max, fascinating historical detail. Don't mind if I save all this in a txt or doc file for future reference. Interesting how the Na-Sc lamp got a foothold in the European market, but I'm still not certain why tri-salt lamps are NEVER found in N.America. Is it because the Na-Sc lamp's initial higher efficacy was improved over the years so the efficacy always remained above tri-salt lamps? Standard N.American Na-Sc lamps as well, have attained a lamp life of 20,000 hours. Is that comperable to the life of European HPI lamps?
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 06:21:50 AM » Author: Max
No problem, you can keep/save this information for yourself. I wouldn't have written it if I did not want people to use this piece of information.

but I'm still not certain why tri-salt lamps are NEVER found in N.America. Is it because the Na-Sc lamp's initial higher efficacy was improved over the years so the efficacy always remained above tri-salt lamps?

It's simply because once the Na-Sc MH lamp had been developed and improved during the 70s, and established itself as a standard lamp technology on the North American market, it made absolutely no financial or technological sense to develop again a new, different type of standard MH lamp for the same market - especially since the prospects in terms of better efficacy and color stability were practically zero. So, further MH lamp developments in the USA during the 80s and 90s (i.e. low-wattage and pulse start MH lamps) still continued using the Na-Sc platform, building further on the knowledge and competences already developed on this particular MH fill chemistry.

Standard N.American Na-Sc lamps as well, have attained a lamp life of 20,000 hours. Is that comperable to the life of European HPI lamps?

Yes, but since 2007 only. Because of the low OCV of series choke ballasts used in Europe, and the lesser degree of lamp power regulation attainable with those, European MH lamps lasted a shorter amount of time than MH lamps on CWA ballasts as used in North America. It is only with the last generation of HPI lamps that Philips eventually matched the 20 khrs service life.
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 06:29:39 AM » Author: Max
This reminds me ... actually, since 2014 Philips does sell HPI-T lamps with E39 base in North America for compact luminaires. So, here's your tri-salt MH lamp for the US market Grin
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Re: Philips HPI-T Plus lamps « Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 03:52:43 PM » Author: lights*plus
Excellent, thanks!
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