Author Topic: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling?  (Read 2064 times)
dor123
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Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « on: March 06, 2017, 11:55:16 AM » Author: dor123
I discovered a horrible feature of the OEM ignitors of the Schreder Sepale here in Qiryat Ata, after I finally seen the left lantern of the 6th lamppost cycling: After 45 sec to a min of ignition attempts during cycling, these ignitors giving up the ignition attempts permanently until the power is reset. I've first seen this behavior with one of the lanterns of the 3rd lamppost when both were cyclers. Today this is the second time I've seen this behavior with the left lantern of the 6th lamppost.
With this feature, these ignitors are limited to use with HPS lamps only, as a cycling MH lamp (Which have longer cooling down time) with this ignitor would just shut down in the first cycle.
As Philips anti-cycle ignitors are suitable for HPS, QMH and CMH lamps, and from my experience with Philips ignitors of L_V, they doing several cycles before giving up, anyone knows what is the brand of this ignitor that gives up during the first cycle after less than 1 min?
Here is a link to the video (Video will be embedded on LG soon).
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 08:21:17 PM » Author: sol
Sounds like a defective unit. Unfortunately it happens, and sometimes it is not limited to one unit but to a whole batch. If the ignitor gives up after the first attempt, a power cycle reset is required after every hot restrike, which is very unpractical and downright dangerous with street lighting. While the behaviour you observed was with EOL lamps, it would happen even with good lamps on a hot restrike.
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 08:42:19 PM » Author: Lodge
It doesn't retry like 20 min later, I know you can get some from tridonic that will shut down but they will attempt to restart like 20 min later to make sure it isn't just a hot lamp... 
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #3 on: March 06, 2017, 10:27:44 PM » Author: dor123
Sounds like a defective unit. Unfortunately it happens, and sometimes it is not limited to one unit but to a whole batch. If the ignitor gives up after the first attempt, a power cycle reset is required after every hot restrike, which is very unpractical and downright dangerous with street lighting. While the behaviour you observed was with EOL lamps, it would happen even with good lamps on a hot restrike.
I don't think it is a defective unit, if I've seen it with two Schreder Sepales right now. I suspects this is a features of these ignitors
It doesn't retry like 20 min later, I know you can get some from tridonic that will shut down but they will attempt to restart like 20 min later to make sure it isn't just a hot lamp...  
These aren't Tridonic, since I've seen partially how the Thorn Alpha 2000, cycling with their OEM ignitors , which are of Tridonic: It reminds the anti-cycle ignitors of Europhane/Sabir ignitors .
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 01:00:33 AM by dor123 » Logged

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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 05:59:40 AM » Author: Medved
Anti cycling ignitors are separately designed for HPS and separately for MH. The difference is the MH ones have longer time out periods, exactly to accommodate the longer cool down periods of the MH. The HPS types have time out in the order of few minutes, the MH ones in the order of half a hour or so.
So with such devices, you should be sure the ignitor type matches the lamp type...
These time-out baed anti cycling types are quite common in the offerings already for a long time.

Theoretically with a more complex algorythm the ignitor may detect the lamp type automatically by really counting the number of cycles (the lamp really has to ignite, warmup and self-exthinguish to count as a cycle). So they give up, when they detect given number of cycles (e.g. 6 or so), so with a HPS it may be within a minute, but with MH the same ignitor may take a hour to reach the 6 cycles to cut out.
Some even monitor the lamp arc voltage and so are able to really detect the real lamp timing, as well as pretty distinct cycling profile (voltage steadily rising from ignition till extinction, the voltage levels becoming really high just before extinction,...), so are able to detect a really cycling lamp even after one or two cycles.
But I would expect the most advanced methods to be used mainly in the electronic ballasts...
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #5 on: March 07, 2017, 07:07:57 AM » Author: dor123
Most Anti-cycle ignitors that I've seen, aren't seperated for MH and HPS lamps, The Eltam ES-PI 1000 ignitor, have a sequence of 3-5 secs try and a min delay, and it gives up after 4 cycles. The Europhane/Sabir ignitors, waits from several secs to sevearl tens of seconds before starting to restrike the lamp, and I think that Tridonic anti-cycle ignitors behaves the same. Helver anti-cycle ignitors behaves the same as the Eltam ES-PI 1000, excepts it is superimposed and not semi-parallel, its try period is longer and its delay is shorter and it gives up after 2 cycles. Most L_V Philips anti-cycle ignitors don't have any delay period during their hot restrike, and behaves like a regular ignitor (Like the SN-58 Self Stop).
I've not yet seen an ignitor that really have a delay of several mins to hour before restriking the lamp.
The anti-cycle ignitor of the Schreder Sepale in Qiryat Ata, are unique to the fact that during cycling, they gives up permanently after less than a min, and if they managed to restrike the lamp, they would give up in the second cycle, and if they manages to save the lamp from extingushing, when they losing the control on the lamp, they give up permanently without any cycle.
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #6 on: March 25, 2017, 05:12:45 AM » Author: Medved
The main difference is in the total timeout for the cumulative time spent in restart attempts: HPS give up after 3..5 minutes, MH after at least 15..30 minutes.

O top of that some ignitors stop after few seconds of unsuccessful pulsing and then restart the sequence after about a minute. This feature is not related to the anti-cycling one. The main purpose is to prevent the tiny sparks from sputerring the electrodes, when the pressure is low enough to allow breakdown, but still too high for the main arc to start. In this phase the simple ignitors generate the tiny glow, which sputters the electrodes and warms up the fill, so generally prolongs the restrike time. By waiting a minute or so, the arctube has time to cool down below he point whe the arc is able to start without that glow. But this feature does not prevent lamps from cycing, for that you need the time-out (or the more advanced analysis method)

These two features are rather idependent: If you want cycling prevention, you need the first one. If you want faster and more solid restrike, you use the second option.
Usually the cheapest ignitors have nothing at all (so they continue pulsing till the lamp ignites), then the more advanced ones use either the restart aid timer (for applications where the cycling is of a less problem than eventual false shut down), or both features (if the cycling is not wanted; usually the restart aid comes as a free bonus, as it poses no problem).
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 01:43:03 AM » Author: lights*plus
The LISOD I have found (in my usual recycle bin), often connected with normal M-H ignitors needs 15 minutes before shutting off the ignitor.
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 02:28:58 AM » Author: dor123
I means about ignitors that during lamp cycle, shutting off after less than a min if they seen that the lamp didn't restrikes and only during a power interruption that resets them, continues to try until the lamp restrike or after 15-20 mins. With MH lamps, the lamp would just shut down, as MH lamps have longer cooling down periods than HPS lamps.
Here is the video of another Schreder Sepale that shutting down permanently after 45 secs during cycling (It have been relamped since).
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #9 on: April 09, 2017, 10:09:45 AM » Author: M250R201SA
I know that Acuity Brands here in the USA manufactures (in CHINA) a series of DTL photoelectric controls that will detect a cycling HPS unit and shut the unit down until a power cycle resets the PE Control and therefore the luminaire.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://antiquestreetlamps.acuitybrands.com/products/detail/318244/dark-to-light/dd-series/diagnostic-dd-series/-/media/products/Dark_to_Light/318244/document/DD_pdf.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjnj9u9xZfTAhVJ5oMKHSFDBosQFggnMAI&usg=AFQjCNEQi41l7dubxdHA4v8qVsBq-CVuHA&sig2=ee1VAbkG8eavtg0J2qCN4g
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #10 on: April 09, 2017, 10:39:03 AM » Author: dor123
This is a complete unit, that disconnects the power to the fixture in case of a cycling HPS lamp, so the lamp will shut down regardless of the ignitor used.
The most common way to prevent HPS or MH lamps from cycling in Europe, is by using a timer inside the ignitor that counts the amount of cycles and stop the operation of the ignitor after the lamp has done a specific number of cycles (4 cycles in Eltam ES-PI 1000 pulse ignitor for example).
Several electronic ballasts for HID lamps, shuts down, when their lamp begins to cycle, after specific number of cycles.
Most anti-cycle ignitor, have a simpler timer that stops the ignition cycle after 15-20 mins, if the lamp didn't hot restrikes or sometimes also in the case the lamp didn't started at all.
The special feature of the ignitors of the Schreder Sepale lanterns at Qiryat Ata, is that in case of lamp cycles, the timer stops the ignition cycle after 45-50 secs only, so they won't restrike at all, if they takes to cool down longer than this time, limiting their use to HPS lamps only.
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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #11 on: April 09, 2017, 03:04:53 PM » Author: Ash
Its not flickering at high speed, just coming on and off once in a couple minutes (usually). Why would anyone care about the cycling at all, to the point of inventing complicated ways to eliminate it ?

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Re: Anti-cycle ignitors that gives up permanently after <1 min during cycling? « Reply #12 on: April 09, 2017, 03:38:36 PM » Author: dor123
The lighting manufacturers states two reasons for anti-cycle ignitors:
1. Cycling lamps are safety risk and are monsters when they turning off and on repeatedly.
2. Cycling lamps makes finding faulty lamp difficult.
Thats is according to Tridonic PDF.
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

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