Author Topic: Stop LED Streetlights  (Read 847 times)
Andy Sodium
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #15 on: August 31, 2017, 01:02:40 PM » Author: Andy Sodium
Yea I would agree trying to stop LED isn't happening, and/or a waste of time.

However, trying to convince folks to use amber and/or warmer CT versions would not necessarily be wasted effort, IMHO. Something like trying to move the track switch to change the train's direction instead of standing in front of it to stop it. Believe you me, I'm not an LED "fan". I see the writing on the wall nonetheless.
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Keyless
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #16 on: August 31, 2017, 04:42:13 PM » Author: Keyless
While it's a great idea, and I don't really want to be the wet blanket, but this how the manufactures will deal with this issue and they did it in 2012 in Hawaii, http://bigislandnow.com/2012/08/28/shift-to-high-tech-streetlights-saves-dark-skies-money/



Nahhh, no wet blanket. Smiley It doesn't surprise me that LED manufactures are coming up with a solution to that problem. Just wish this was implemented around here though. I actually like the orange yellow over the harsh white, but time will tell how it all works out. 
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 05:56:58 PM » Author: HomeBrewLamps
While doing something like this would probably not get anywhere, there are a few good points you could use:
-LED streetlighting is NOT better for the enviroment no matter how you look at it. First of all, they require much more energy to manufacture than a simple HPS light. After that, they have a wide variety of chemicals in them that can't all be recycled easily, and when a fixture goes EOL you have to replace the entire thing rather than changing a lamp or ignitor
-They can cause vision damage long-term in the same way that staring at a phone screen will.

Also they're bad with light pollution and they mess up peoples and animals sleep cycles
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Ash
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 06:19:19 PM » Author: Ash
However, trying to convince folks to use amber
(Which is less efficient than White LEDs, which in turn are less efficient than HPS/LPS)

Also, actual Amber LEDs where the Amber light is from the chip itself, have spectrum much like that of LPS. This is an advantage over HPS for astronomers and disadvantage for everyone else

Nahhh, no wet blanket. Smiley It doesn't surprise me that LED manufactures are coming up with a solution to that problem. Just wish this was implemented around here though. I actually like the orange yellow over the harsh white, but time will tell how it all works out. 
Traditionally LPS luminaires were very inefficient optically, but that is bc when they were designed in the 50s, there was not as much priority put into optical efficiency. The priority was to make the lantern cover as much area as possible from very widely spaced poles (some of which dated all the way back to the gas/electricity conversions, when luminaires have not had any optics whatsoever)

The LED design mentioned in the article is special in that it uses Amber LEDs, which is nice, but in regards to optics it is simply a new design made with efficiency at higher priority, so of course it is less lossy than old LPS lanterns. I would expect that a modern reflector FCO design for LPS would be just as efficeint optically
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #19 on: August 31, 2017, 06:49:45 PM » Author: Lodge
(Which is less efficient than White LEDs, which in turn are less efficient than HPS/LPS)

Also, actual Amber LEDs where the Amber light is from the chip itself, have spectrum much like that of LPS. This is an advantage over HPS for astronomers and disadvantage for everyone else
Traditionally LPS luminaires were very inefficient optically, but that is bc when they were designed in the 50s, there was not as much priority put into optical efficiency. The priority was to make the lantern cover as much area as possible from very widely spaced poles (some of which dated all the way back to the gas/electricity conversions, when luminaires have not had any optics whatsoever)

The LED design mentioned in the article is special in that it uses Amber LEDs, which is nice, but in regards to optics it is simply a new design made with efficiency at higher priority, so of course it is less lossy than old LPS lanterns. I would expect that a modern reflector FCO design for LPS would be just as efficeint optically

And add high frequency square wave drivers to the SOX they could be designed to be more efficient then all the LED's short of some specialized experimental led with hollow nanotube phosphors hidden away in a lab owned by Cree, promising to deliver but always falling short, or priced ridiculously high..   
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Andy Sodium
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 04:39:41 PM » Author: Andy Sodium
(Which is less efficient than White LEDs, which in turn are less efficient than HPS/LPS)

Also, actual Amber LEDs where the Amber light is from the chip itself, have spectrum much like that of LPS. This is an advantage over HPS for astronomers and disadvantage for everyone else
Traditionally LPS luminaires were very inefficient optically, but that is bc when they were designed in the 50s, there was not as much priority put into optical efficiency. The priority was to make the lantern cover as much area as possible from very widely spaced poles (some of which dated all the way back to the gas/electricity conversions, when luminaires have not had any optics whatsoever)

The LED design mentioned in the article is special in that it uses Amber LEDs, which is nice, but in regards to optics it is simply a new design made with efficiency at higher priority, so of course it is less lossy than old LPS lanterns. I would expect that a modern reflector FCO design for LPS would be just as efficeint optically

Yes definitely not discounting that amber is less efficient. For folks making decisions about lighting though, logic and efficiency aren't necessarily whats on the brain. Most chances you talk to someone about lights that don't include enthusiasts, they are going to say LED is better and want LED regardless of the details. Amber and warm CT LED to me seem to be a bridge between what the reality is (people want LED) and what we know is best. FYI, I have seen a large Amber LED install at a parking lot in Panama City Beach, FL (redneck rivera) and it was quite nice. There is also still a good amount of SOX on front beach rd. by pier park as well, 1 of 2 installs I've ever seen in the wild.

All caution to the wind with current tech I personally would like to see SOX-E PSG lamps in new modern optics instead of LED, but that's unlikely to happen. In a dreamworld there would be 100k hour induction SOX, they've done it with fluorescent, why not w/SOX which seems to me to be a distant cousin?
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RyanF40T12
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #21 on: September 02, 2017, 08:45:11 PM » Author: RyanF40T12
LEDs are here to stay and they will continue to replace HPS, LPS, MV, and MH streetlights and no amount of protesting or signatures will stop it.  Be smart, and know what battles you can and cannot win.  This is one you cannot win.  Save your energy, take a few deep breaths, and move on to something else. 
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #22 on: September 02, 2017, 10:28:39 PM » Author: tolivac
The good thing about LED fixtures-means maybe you can get the old ones for our collections.I can agree you can't fight the LED "invasion" no matter how good or bad they are.SOME LED fixtures can be reapirable-the AEL-Duke Power ones installed at the transmitter have LED elements and drivers that can be replaced.The drivers are in F-can flourescent ballast cans.AC in leads-the Red-Black DC out to the LED elements.And there are two drivers and two  LED light elements-suppose they both won't fail at the same time.The LED bulbs that replace flourescent bulbs are replacable as well in the building-and we have spares.-two cases of them!The LED lot-streetlights are rated for 215W.
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #23 on: September 03, 2017, 06:24:47 AM » Author: Ash
You can win if you choose where. Pick on private & private business use of lighting, and in it on informed choice. Most people there choose LED bc they hear "LED" all around them but dont really know anything about either LED or non LED
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Andy Sodium
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #24 on: September 03, 2017, 07:37:26 PM » Author: Andy Sodium
I completely agree Ash.

I have been helping to educate and convince the facilities team at the last venue I worked at to relamp instead. They had someone they know personally who owns a lighting company quote them for a LED conversion and they used all the wrong numbers to skew the math in their favor. They said all the parking lot lights were 1000w MH instead of 400w that they really are for starters, and we're going to replace according to them two 1000w shoeboxes per pole (x52 poles) with one 215w LED. That math was skewed really bad and if I wouldn't have called BS on that, they would have been none the wiser. I've been trying to convince them to relamp with Philips 330w allstart bulbs or induction if they really must change out fixtures instead. I've used the allstart bulbs with great success. They are more expensive upfront, but pay for themselves within two years of D2D use, have 90CRI, and better lumen maintenance than regular MH.
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #25 on: September 10, 2017, 10:25:31 AM » Author: wattMaster
Here is the website right now: streetlights.info
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 02:26:39 PM by wattMaster » Logged

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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #26 on: September 10, 2017, 03:46:20 PM » Author: Roi_hartmann
I think there are no any good arguments in there that are explained well enought so that regular no-lighting interested people would consider doing anything.

Things like "I like white light too. But the problem with using it for streetlighting
is that it creates a sense of boringness, as it's just the same white
light everywhere, with no variety" is more of an personal opinion and taste than good argument.
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #27 on: September 13, 2017, 11:17:03 AM » Author: mdcastle
How many agencies actually repaired HID fixtures anyway? The city of Minneapolis does, but by far the most fixtures around here are owned by Xcel Energy. If they service a fixture and a new lamp doesn't work, they try a new photocell and if that doesn't work the entire fixture got ripped down and thrown into recycling and a brand new one put up. You could see quite a few full-cutoff fixtures here and there, indicating ones that had gotten replaced in the past 15 years or so.
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #28 on: September 25, 2017, 06:22:30 PM » Author: wattMaster
I've been making lots of improvements to my website, it could actually get somewhere now.
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Re: Stop LED Streetlights « Reply #29 on: September 25, 2017, 06:44:15 PM » Author: troyp1978
i hate led street lighting but unfortunatly no matter how hard we try LEDs are here to stay Sad

i am just grateful that i was able to collect a large range of HID Street lights so they will be more valuable now that there numbers are declining
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