Author Topic: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020  (Read 2437 times)
MissRiaElaine
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #30 on: November 14, 2017, 12:45:46 PM » Author: MissRiaElaine
Members here are happily spending $ on snatching old lamps off Ebay. I think it may be entirely possible that they put some more money instead into buying the machinery and renting the floor space - It may not be all that much if shared between bigger number of people...

The profit from this may be negative, but such project would be about personal interest and not about profit

A laudable idea, but do you have any idea how complex the manufacture of SOX lamps actually is..? Much as I'd love to see it done, I doubt it's really practical.
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Ash
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #31 on: November 14, 2017, 12:59:59 PM » Author: Ash
We have some great engineering minds right here. Together we will be able to solve everything. And its not like there is need to design everything from scratch, just figure out how the existing system works and maintain it (as long as no new features are added)
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MissRiaElaine
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #32 on: November 14, 2017, 01:47:20 PM » Author: MissRiaElaine
We have some great engineering minds right here. Together we will be able to solve everything. And its not like there is need to design everything from scratch, just figure out how the existing system works and maintain it (as long as no new features are added)

I was thinking more along the lines of the actual work involved. Knowing how something works isn't the same as actually doing it. I know perfectly well how a sodium lamp works, but I couldn't make one, even if I did have all the machinery.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 01:53:22 PM by MissRiaElaine » Logged

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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #33 on: November 14, 2017, 05:14:43 PM » Author: Andy Sodium
Indeed, I wonder if there is anyone who has worked in SOX production even knows if this site exists. They would probably think we're all bonkers lol. Regardless, I would think that at least someone who knows how to make them would be disheartened to see the craft just disappear.
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #34 on: November 14, 2017, 05:30:20 PM » Author: Lodge
Members here are happily spending $ on snatching old lamps off Ebay. I think it may be entirely possible that they put some more money instead into buying the machinery and renting the floor space - It may not be all that much if shared between bigger number of people...

The profit from this may be negative, but such project would be about personal interest and not about profit

And depending on the environmental laws in the UK, Philips might not even want to sell the place sometimes it's cheaper to keep the property on the books to avoid the cleanup bill I know a few oil companies that do this all the time, and they leave behind fenced off areas of grass and trees and back in the day there was lots of what is highly regulated stuff today going into some lamps.. So the Lease might be less then one would think... Does any one have any factory floor shots to see what is all in the building ? 
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #35 on: November 14, 2017, 09:19:34 PM » Author: Ash
I was thinking more along the lines of the actual work involved. Knowing how something works isn't the same as actually doing it. I know perfectly well how a sodium lamp works, but I couldn't make one, even if I did have all the machinery.
I mean how the production stations work, not how the lamp works. For each station the step itself is trivial. What wasn't trivial was designing and making the tool, bit this have allready been done

I do have recent experience with getting equipment from factory on a large scale, so i do see what is in there and what are the challenges. Definitely not impossible. Most important is that all mechanical parts are there, then the work focuses mostly on the control (and in my case part of the control have to be redone from scratch, but so what, its just writing code)



And depending on the environmental laws in the UK, Philips might not even want to sell the place sometimes it's cheaper to keep the property on the books to avoid the cleanup bill I know a few oil companies that do this all the time, and they leave behind fenced off areas of grass and trees and back in the day there was lots of what is highly regulated stuff today going into some lamps.. So the Lease might be less then one would think... Does any one have any factory floor shots to see what is all in the building ? 
Selling it would mean it's someone else's problem now. They would be more than happy to sell it if that's the case..
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #36 on: November 14, 2017, 09:31:39 PM » Author: Lodge

Selling it would mean it's someone else's problem now. They would be more than happy to sell it if that's the case..


That's not normally how that works anymore, normally they have to complete remediation before selling it to stop businesses giving the contaminated property away to someone not able to commit the resources needed to complete a remediation and allow the original company that contaminated the land to walk away from the liability..   
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #37 on: November 15, 2017, 01:07:16 AM » Author: Roi_hartmann
Is this the place? https://www.google.fi/maps/place/Philips+Lighting,+Wellhall+Rd,+Hamilton+ML3+9BZ,+UK/@55.7704368,-4.0669745,16z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x4888154f2960caf7:0xc15c3affbaf575a9

I think that acquiring sox manufacturing tools is in reality, no matter how inviting the idea sounds, impossible for hobby groups. I would guess the sheer amount of equiptment in whole production line is lots of stuff. It would also be necessary to know if all the parts of sox lamp is manufactured in there or are some produced elsewhere. Theoretically, "missing" parts could be outsourced but buying that stuff and all the other more special materials on small quantities could become quite expensive.

Then there is running cost and maintenance cost. We dont know how good or bad contidion those equipments are, have they been keot up just to run few more years and thats it.

This is just a guess, but I would say, that the overal cost would be at least six digit sum easely. What is sure is that manufacturing lps lamp is not profitable anymore, if it was, there would be atleats chinese cheap-lamps available, but I seen none.

It's not about could we get it working, more could we afford it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 01:09:54 AM by Roi_hartmann » Logged

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MissRiaElaine
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #38 on: November 15, 2017, 08:06:58 AM » Author: MissRiaElaine
I mean how the production stations work, not how the lamp works. For each station the step itself is trivial.

Is it..? Are you sure..?

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What wasn't trivial was designing and making the tool, bit this have allready been done

True, but do you have the skill and years of experience necessary to operate the equipment..?
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #39 on: November 15, 2017, 10:35:36 AM » Author: Max.
but do you have the skill and years of experience necessary to operate the equipment..?

That's a spot on remark Ria. When it comes to traditional lighting, making lamps is much, much more than just pushing a button and let the machine run. It is just naive and plain ignorant of the art (to put it mildly) to believe that the hardest part is only to build the machines. There are fine adjustments that needs to be made (and kept in check) in order to maintain a high product quality, and that's not just about a few parameters only... there are several tens of degrees of liberty (often more) that are involved in the production process of electric lamps and this requires skilled and experienced operators to keep the scrap rate as small as possible.
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Andy Sodium
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #40 on: November 15, 2017, 10:49:27 AM » Author: Andy Sodium
Not to mention access to the materials involved in the manufacture of SOX lamps too.
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #41 on: November 15, 2017, 10:58:24 AM » Author: Max.
Of course, raw materials (access to and quality grade) is also of very high importance. Like with many other processes, garbage in leads invariably to garbage out.
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #42 on: November 15, 2017, 01:12:59 PM » Author: Ash
For most production, most steps are no more than a sequence of moving something for a preset number of steps (motor) or until a sensor is reached (cylinders and most other actuators). This is exactly trivial. The steps which are more complicated than this are few and far inbetween, and even there, it takes only so much experimenting with the individual station to get it right

While the complete lamp have 10's dimensions of variation, each step does not. The individual steps are tuned one after the other (each with its much more limited set of parameters) until the output product of the step is satisfactory, and then the next step is addressed. This is how it is done everywhere. Even in moderate size factories, the number of real engineers (and not just operators) is in the single digits

The cost is the main problem, but the more peeps are interested, the more the cost splits down. And by correct arrangement, the cost itself can get very well down. Some steps can be changed from automatic to manual, so saving on the cost of machines for steps that dont justify it for very small batch production


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MissRiaElaine
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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #43 on: November 15, 2017, 02:15:51 PM » Author: MissRiaElaine
I'm sorry, it seems to me you are totally failing to take into account the complexity of the SOX lamp construction and the sheer skill required to make it.

Many jobs look simple to the outsider, but you try doing them without the necessary skill, which sometimes takes years if not decades to acquire. My last job before I retired involved checking CCTV for my local bus company for incidents that occurred, such as road traffic collisions, crimes and accidents on board, etc. and dealing with local management, police and other interested parties. It sounds simple, but it is far from that.

I am certain that lamp production is an awful lot more complicated. You can throw six-figure sums at it, but unless you have the people with the necessary skills and experience, it's not going to happen.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 02:20:19 PM by MissRiaElaine » Logged

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Re: Philips to discontinue production of SOX (Low Pressure Sodium) lamps in 2020 « Reply #44 on: November 15, 2017, 03:12:37 PM » Author: Roi_hartmann
I'm sorry, it seems to me you are totally failing to take into account the complexity of the SOX lamp construction and the sheer skill required to make it.

Many jobs look simple to the outsider, but you try doing them without the necessary skill, which sometimes takes years if not decades to acquire. My last job before I retired involved checking CCTV for my local bus company for incidents that occurred, such as road traffic collisions, crimes and accidents on board, etc. and dealing with local management, police and other interested parties. It sounds simple, but it is far from that.

I am certain that lamp production is an awful lot more complicated. You can throw six-figure sums at it, but unless you have the people with the necessary skills and experience, it's not going to happen.

I agree, and there is a risk that running such process wrong can cause damage to the equiptment that are very expensive to repair.



Also, I wonder how well these machines even fit to small volume production without modification if they are ment for high volume production.

Does anyone know is there separate production lines for different wattage sox lamps or do they switch wattage on a single line from time to time?
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