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LED done properly - just being a realist for a moment

LED done properly - just being a realist for a moment

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I was in this store for a bit, and I realize I had zero eye strain. Light was a pure white, no yellow tinge, yet it is relatively warm at 3000K.

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Album name:silverliner / Cool effects
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Keywords:Lamps
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Date added:Mar 12, 2017
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Date Time:2017:03:12 17:47:39
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Lumex120
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105555521242365640724 UCM30tBQDUECOV6VeG5W87Vg zfarmadillo
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Mar 12, 2017 at 08:41 PM Author: Lumex120
You sure those aren't CMH lamps? CMH has the same effect.

Any machine is a smoke machine if you operate it wrong enough.

Silverliner
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Verd a ray classic.


GoL
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Mar 12, 2017 at 08:54 PM Author: Silverliner
I looked at the lights, know they're LED. Not the tubular CMH lamps.

May all the great lighting technologies have their place in history.

Administrator of Lighting-Gallery.net. Need help? PM me.

Lodge
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Mar 12, 2017 at 09:12 PM Author: Lodge
There are stores that bring in qualified lighting designers, who spec out high quality products, and it looks like they wanted a certain effect, good lighting will sell product and low CRI or dimly lit areas don't make there product pop and look great, and they seem to be making your eyes look where they want them, on there products, and normally cost is not the designers main issue, which is great to see and I bet they also won't have any major issue with them down the road, so they get repeated sales results..
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^homebuilt fixture


GoL ATL
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Mar 12, 2017 at 09:51 PM Author: xmaslightguy
This is a nice looking display & well done lighting for it.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

Powergroove
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Mar 12, 2017 at 09:53 PM Author: Powergroove
Looks like a good fit for LED in that application. If done right led can be good.

Keep government out of the lighting industry.

rjluna2
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Robert


GoL
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Mar 13, 2017 at 05:23 AM Author: rjluna2
Now, we need to find the manufacture and brand name that makes a decent LED fixture

Pretty, please no more Chinese failure.

Lightingguy1994
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Mar 13, 2017 at 02:57 PM Author: Lightingguy1994
Looks nice! I like the LED fixtures where you have to make good effort to actually tell its LED
Flurofan96
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Mar 13, 2017 at 04:24 PM Author: Flurofan96
High spec LED lighting there for department/retail stores

I will give LEDisease a taste of my shoe

TL buis
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Mar 15, 2017 at 12:51 PM Author: TL buis
Unfortuneatly, LED is getting better and better ( But I don't want it)
ricksbulbs
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Apr 03, 2017 at 12:45 AM Author: ricksbulbs
Put 480 on it, it will look even better with sparks flying!
Lodge
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Apr 03, 2017 at 01:59 AM Author: Lodge

Put 480 on it, it will look even better with sparks flying!


In a retail store they won't have 480 VAC service, and it's not hard to get 480 VAC led drivers that work just fine on 480 VAC...
Silverliner
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Verd a ray classic.


GoL
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Apr 03, 2017 at 02:28 AM Author: Silverliner
He meant put these 120v LEDs on 480v, LOL. Lighting in mall shops tend to be on 120v circuits.

May all the great lighting technologies have their place in history.

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Lodge
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Apr 03, 2017 at 03:18 AM Author: Lodge
If you do that the MOV will just take out the fuse or breaker as you'll go over it's let through voltage typically 330 volts, and most good switched mode power supplies will survive, you might overheat the inrush protection but that's about the worst, they simply reduce there duty cycle with an increasing input voltage, the one's I've been using will take a 6kV surge and still work after fuses get replaced, but if you did the same and took a magnetic ballast wired for 120 and ran 480 into that to would end in catastrophic failure, and since there is less protections built in it would also be more catastrophic of a failure..

And ya it's pretty rare to see anything other then 120 in retail the odd place has 208 or 240 depending if they have a 3 phase supply or not, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen 347 inside a retail store and none have 480 but again 480 is uncommon in my area all around if we need to go any distance or drive large motors we use 600 but that never happens in retail...
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Rory Mercury!


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Apr 03, 2017 at 08:04 AM Author: FGS

Put 480 on it, it will look even better with sparks flying!


They do make LED fixtures for 480v so sparks won't be flying everywhere. Well unless you happen to buy a bad batch or go with eBay's clearance sale bin toys.

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/AEL/DOCUMENTS/SPECSHEETS/ATBL.PDF Here's one of the examples that can be specified for 480v.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

Lodge
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Apr 03, 2017 at 04:51 PM Author: Lodge

They do make LED fixtures for 480v so sparks won't be flying everywhere. Well unless you happen to buy a bad batch or go with eBay's clearance sale bin toys.

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/library/AEL/DOCUMENTS/SPECSHEETS/ATBL.PDF Here's one of the examples that can be specified for 480v.



And most 480 VAC stuff is actually pretty reliable stuff, it's not the cheap retail stuff because retail / average consumers don't have access to 480 VAC power, and if it's speced to 480 I've found it will run on 575 with no noticable effects other then a bit more heating...
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GoL ATL
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Apr 03, 2017 at 07:27 PM Author: xmaslightguy
@Lodge:
Depends on the size of the store (or size of the building its in)
A large building they would very likely have 3-phase 120v & 277v 3-phase (which then gives 208v & 480v available across phases)
The standard fluorescent lighting is generally run off 277v...but as others have said, 480v stuff does exist.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Apr 03, 2017 at 07:42 PM Author: sol
And in Canada, you normally have ballasts run on 347V.

I've seen some well lit LED stores like this one, where they probably hired a good lighting designer for all the stores the chain opens, so one plan, many stores. I've also seen stores with inappropriate use of discharge (fluorescent as well as HID, but most notably T5 HO) and the resulting glare was very uncomfortable. No matter what the light source is, a correct application is always better. That said, I still (and always will) prefer discharge over LED.
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Apr 03, 2017 at 08:22 PM Author: Lodge
@ xmaslightguy,
Don't have 277v up here it's a US thing we use 347v, but it's not common in retail they get 120v/208v on three phase the rest of the mall common area will get 347v.. But yes places like Walmart will get 347v lighting circuits, places with 480v usually have other uncommon voltages like 2300v/4000v but they are using motors larger then 100 HP up to about 3000 HP but you never see things like that in retail even walk in's cooler compressors are small compared to those monsters and they have there own transformers not shared with other businesses..
xmaslightguy
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Apr 03, 2017 at 08:35 PM Author: xmaslightguy
Interesting.. Is the 347v just a single phase? or is that across phases?
277v lighting I know is common here (like I say in larger buildings) .. I really don't know about 480v, seems the main things I've heard about it being used for is heating(in places where natural gas isn't an option) and ofcourse for large motors.

And those are some serious motors that you mentioned! they must be huge beasts

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Apr 03, 2017 at 08:44 PM Author: Lodge
347 is phase to neutral and 600 across phases.. Those motors are pushing oil down a 36 inch pipe or they are compressing natural gas, yes they are huge like 50,000 lbs huge
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Apr 03, 2017 at 09:13 PM Author: xmaslightguy
The 347 works out to a nice even number across phases

Oh wow..that's more than just a beast, its an absolute monster but makes sense for a large industrial use such as that

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Apr 04, 2017 at 01:46 PM Author: sol
If mall stores usually get 120/208V in Canada, any HID running on magnetic gear would have to run on 120V unless CWI ballasts are used. Even if you can buy multi tap ballasts that have 208V and 240V taps, since that configuration is phase-to-phase, the Canadian code requires a CWI ballast so the lamp holder is isolated from the hot legs of the input mains.

Since we're on the topic, does anyone know if the Canadian code permits the use of a standard electronic HID ballast on 240V phase-to-phase ?
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Apr 04, 2017 at 04:49 PM Author: Ash
What makes the Canadian code require such safety measures ?

Isnt a double pole isolation switch (main or at the luminaire) sufficient ? If yes, this allows the use of efficient reactor ballasts, and also provides higher safety (what if you touch the base contact of the socket and not the side contact, for example through the remains of a broken lamp : The isolation swotch protects here, the CWI does not b/c its shell is earthed)

Is there practice of using RCD (GFCI) protection for lighting ciurcuits ? If yes, CWI defeat the protection
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Apr 04, 2017 at 06:43 PM Author: sol
To be honest, I haven't studied any detail of the code and why it is as such. The arguments you state seem to be valid for a secure installation, however it might be derived from a tradition of some sort. Not really sure...
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Apr 04, 2017 at 10:25 PM Author: Lodge
Where are you getting 240 phase to phase ? not saying it's not possible just really uncommon, are you sure it's not 120/240 power single phase 3 wire (also called split phase) if so you only got one phase so you can use any ballast you like on the 120 line but the 240 it's CWI or SCWI, if you have 120/208 this is three phase 4 wire “Y” (Wye) and then you need a CWI or in problematic areas you can use a SWCI or just use the 120 to neutral and use any ballast you like.. But at home you can do what ever you like it just violates code and you might have a live socket screw even when the power looks like it's turned off, keep that in mind while changing the lamp, and don't let your insurance company find out, and maybe don't use it in a permanent/attached fixture but in an outdoor post mounted light it's not a huge risk since you won't be up the post every day playing with it...

Ash, It is so that we don't end up with a screw shell of the socket being energized. (it's the code I don't write it, but I'm guessing they had a problem with this in the past, and double pole switches have twice as many contacts to fail which could still leave the shell energized, I know not common)

No we normally wouldn't use an RCD / GFCI on lighting and if someone does it always results in nuisance tripping when used with anything containing a ballast, normally lighting over 150 volts has to be installed and worked on by an electrician, they do allow for some exceptions like ballast changes but not much else, however most businesses don't even allow that, and commercial building even spec the lighting to be plug in so they can change it without touching the wiring they just plug and play, so the lighting circuit wiring should be done correctly and safely, it should contain proper grounding and breakers so it's something that doesn't need additional protection of a GFCI..

If you want to use efficient ballasts we just wire them to 347 on a single phase (if they have 347) normally I only do 120/347, on the plus side if you lose a phase you only lose 1/3 of the lighting not 2/3 so you can still see whats going on, not that this happens very often..
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Apr 05, 2017 at 05:22 AM Author: sol
@Lodge : Yes, 240V between the legs of standard single phase 120V/240V or 208V between phases of 120V/208V 3-phase power. Sorry for the confusion.

Lights running on either 208 or 240V in Canada are quite rare, given the sparsity of CWI ballasts. I wouldn't see any problems with running a standard electronic ballast on either 240V hot-to-hot or between the phases of 208V, however. These (HID) usually have timed ignitors and shut down in case of a defective or missing lamp. A 2-pole switch would be required also.

Although I don't really work in lighting, I'm a big fan of plug in fixtures. Makes maintenance easier. If you have a large room lit with identical fixtures, you can have 110% of what fixtures you need. If there are any failures apart from EOL lamps, you can simply swap the fixture and repair the defective unit at ease when time permits and put it in line for the next outage.
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Apr 05, 2017 at 11:18 AM Author: Ash
"Ash, It is so that we don't end up with a screw shell of the socket being energized"

I dont understand why so big deal is made of it. If the lamps are replaced with the power on, this is dangerous on so many other accounts, including touching the center contact trough a broken lamp, touching the screw thread on a luminaire with broken Neutral (shock in series with the luminaire), and lamp explosions in the face when failing lamps and gear are disturbed by somebody messign with them from up close



"double pole switches have twice as many contacts to fail which could still leave the shell energized"

Single pole switch is only 2 times safer. It isnt order of magnitude difference, so estimating safety in numbers, if the double pole is dangerous, single pole is largely equally dangerous. Generally mechanical switches are reliable, especially when nobody except you have access to them. And if there is a receptacle disconnect, use that - Nothing can be safer



"we normally wouldn't use an RCD / GFCI on lighting and if someone does it always results in nuisance tripping when used with anything containing a ballast"

Common practice over here (mandatory in residential, optional in commercial installations but often done anyway, both are 230V), no nuisance tripping whatsoever
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Apr 05, 2017 at 04:27 PM Author: Lodge
Ash, your RCD's will allow for a much larger ground leakage as well, so while they are a good idea they can still result in electrocution which is how they get around nuisance tripping by allowing 30mA vs 5mA over here, also the cost of an RCD or GFCI is prohibitive, to give you an idea a simple 15 amp single pole GFCI breaker retail is about $140, and double pole 30 amp is about $300+ and we don't generally see anything bigger then 50-60 AMP double pole without having to order them, and this can take weeks they are not common place like a 63 amp RCD that I could get in Europe for like $35 off the shelf.. So it mainly comes down to following the code at the lowest cost so GFCI's only go near water sources or outdoor plugs..

About the replacing lamps, I don't know why it's in the code but I know it's been in there a long time so I can only guess someone did that and got shocked or killed so it got added, and phase to phase running up to 600 volts is pretty dangerous to someone who is unaware the shell has a 347 volt potential just waiting to kill them, but on the plus side a SCWI ballast can take a -45% drop in it's input power and still maintain full brightness, try that with any other magnetic ballast and see how well they work..

And yes receptacles are the best idea, I always unplug plus you can drop the fixture in seconds and fix it on the ground not on the top of a ladder or a man lift, or like sol said just swap it out and be done in seconds and fix it later, or in my case just fix the dead fixture someone else got to carry down the ladder and bill them the same amount and get away with only doing half the work...
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Apr 05, 2017 at 04:45 PM Author: Lodge

Lights running on either 208 or 240V in Canada are quite rare, given the sparsity of CWI ballasts. I wouldn't see any problems with running a standard electronic ballast on either 240V hot-to-hot or between the phases of 208V, however. These (HID) usually have timed ignitors and shut down in case of a defective or missing lamp. A 2-pole switch would be required also.


CWI ballast are not the most efficient and they cost more, so most installers either do 120 or 347 to avoid them and it also reduces the cost of copper, power,switches and meets code so yes it's a trade off and cost is the important factor when someone else is paying, we don't get cost plus jobs very often where some amazing equipment can get installed.. But running a non-isolated ballast on 240 or even 208 is not a problem for the equipment, they work just fine, it's just a code violation and if your in business that results in one of three things, you get called back and have to fix it, you never get called again and get the bill for fixing your mistakes, or someone dies and you lose everything, so it's not worth the risks, but at home it's a free for all, just know what you are doing and do it safely...

Also electronic ballasts might be allowed, but most manufactures won't say if they are isolated from the line power, but they basically are a switched mode power supply so by design they should be isolated as the power goes through a small high frequency isolation transformer to step it up or down with the only feedback from line power to output power going through an optical isolator, I have to open one up and see if they are the same or if they have connected the common line to the shell output.. I'll also ask some of the reps I know, and see if they can answer this question for you as well...
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