rjluna2
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Robert
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Sounds like fun  |
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Pretty, please no more Chinese failure.
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themaritimegirl
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Florence
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Haha, I love playing and experimenting with this stuff, learning new things and such.  |
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sol
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Two lamps in series each with its own starter works quite well. In Europe, two 18 watt lamps are wired in series just like you describe only with two 120 volt starters and one 36 watt ballast. This works only with 230 volt ballasts however with certain combinations (mainly large tubes with low wattage, such as F15T12 or F14T12) works quite well as discussed above. I would be curious of the results you would get from trying this with two starters instead of just one and a manual preheat on the other lamp. |
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themaritimegirl
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Florence
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I only have the one starter, but if I get another one I'll definitely try it. I imagine it would be very finicky, if not impossible, to strike, because one lamp can strike only if the other lamp is either currently in the preheating phase, or happens to successfully strike at the same time. So if one lamp strikes, and the second lamp's starter opens, but that lamp doesn't strike, it knocks out the already-running first lamp, and the process has to start all over again. |
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sol
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You are right, it is more finicky as both starters have to fire at the right time. However, it does not really add a lot of time to the startup. If, on the other hand, you have a lamp that is hard to start to begin with, you might run into problems. Some North American members here have wired two F20T12 lamps in series (each with a Fs-2 starter) on a single lamp F40 preheat ballast with good results. |
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Medved
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There is other problem with starters: In order to close when the lamp does not ignite, they need the balast OCV with no current to be in the peak voltage at least 1.5x the starter's closing voltage. But to not interfere with the running lamp, the arc voltage has to be maximum about 2/3 of that starter's closing voltage. With an optimized starter it means the mains voltage has to be about double in rms voltage than the lamp arc.
Therefore the starters are made with two voltage levels: One for 230Vrms (so >300V peak) single lamp operation (S10,...) with closing voltage about 200..240V, second for 120V (>160V peak) or 230V series operation with closing voltage around 100..130V.
So at 120V it means max about 60..70V (if the system is stretched) for an arc, at 230V the limit is about 120V. So with 120V you may fit just single lamp there, while at 230V you may easily operate two in series.
Here the circuit started as single lamp, as the second was bypassed by the wire, so the starter worked. After ignition the lamp operated well, so it is not necessary for the starter to operate anymore... |
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No more selfballasted c***
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Seth11
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13 watt Color CFLs!
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Will the lamps be over driven on a incandescent ballast? |
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NO MORE ELECTRONIC BALLASTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAGNETIC BALLASTS FOR EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SAY NO TO BULB AND MAGNETIC BALLAST BANS!!!!!
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migette1
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Peter
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This idea was used in UK in the 50s 60s see my comments on Seths example. |
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Interested in the history of electric lighting and incandescent in particular and neon glow lamps.
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themaritimegirl
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Florence
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Seth: Lamp current varies depending on the wattage of incandescent bulb you use, so it's always possible to get it right. |
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ultralume
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Trent, did the bulbs start without a choke? I thought fluorescent lamps would not start from 120v without a choke ,.... Interesting ! |
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themaritimegirl
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Florence
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Nope, no choke. While it does indeed help to have an inductive kick, it's not required. As long as the lamps are near something that's grounded or that otherwise provides a capacitive coupling (in the case of a setup like this I lay my free hand on the lamp to aid in starting), it will work just fine. In the case of lamps with the lowest arc voltage, like the F14T12 or F4T5, the preheating alone is usually all that's required to start. I plan on building an F14T12 fixture based on an incandescent ballast. |
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funkybulb
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I have use two starters FS2 on series 2 x 20 watt lamps on single high power factor autotransformer ballast. It will blink in tandem
And when one lamp starts it will drive lamp at
25 watts until the other lamps starts and both lamps even out at 430 mA
This how they do this in EU 240 volr circuit
There enough OCV to drive both F20 lamps |
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No LED gadgets, spins too slowly. Gotta love preheat and MV. let the lights keep my meter spinning.
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Medved
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What helps a bit is to have the ballasting resistor on the Neutral side. Then during preheat the electrodes are at the line potential, so towards the shield there is quite significant voltage forming a bit of ionisation before the starter switch opens. |
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No more selfballasted c***
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BG101
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EYE H80 Mercury Vapour
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With our 240V circuits we use series starters for 4-22 watt tubes (these are for 120V single circuits as well) and once one lamp strikes, if the other fails to light the first will also go out and both repeat the starting cycle. Also (with the series 4-8W circuits anyway) the running lamp will be noticeably overdriven during preheat of the other lamp, or if the starter gets stuck at tube EOL.
The only problem with series circuits as I see it is that when one lamp fails the other, even if new, could also be harmed by the failing tube, either due to excessive restarts or rectifying lamps. Probably better with electronic starters although rectification is still possible.
The twin 40W rapidstart ballasts I have (presumably also the 30W, 20W and 13W versions which I know existed) will run the lamps into the ground and can run for ages with one rectifying lamp, so best to replace both lamps at the same time and use the working lamp somewhere else if it's still got some life in it. Mine ran a pair of tubes from new and one got dropped not long after, breaking one of the electrodes. It worked OK but both tubes flickered unless the damaged tube was put in the correct way round (and in the earthy side I think) and it aged fast probably due to cold starting.
BG |
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Say NO to DICTATORSHIP in the form of bulb/tube/ballast bans !!
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themaritimegirl
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Florence
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Medved, I didn't know that! I'll have to try that out. By shield, do you mean cathode shields? |
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Medved
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No, I mean the grounded metalwork of the fixture around the lamp, so the reflector,... It then act as an external electrode aiding the ignition. |
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No more selfballasted c***
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vytautas_lamps
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My idol is Mylene Farmer, deal with it.
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I once tried to turn on a two f40t12 lamps on f80t12 ballast with one switch and other actual FS4 starter. when I shorted the "manual" starter (the switch) the real starter on the other lamp turned the lamp on and when I turned of the manual "STARTER" (the switch) the other lamp turned on also. they was working fine, with no complain  the reason why I put one fs 4 starter and switch, is because the f40 lamps will flash and not turn on on the fs2 starter, so I had to use one manual switch and for the other lamp fs4 starter. I hope you will understand my explanation on how to turn two f40 lamps on f80 balast (f96 t12)  |
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New lighting technologies is a pity fest everywhere you look. From LEDs that last only for two months, to a never-ending global starvation of t8 fluorescent tubes. We shall reinforce ourselves with good old full mercury t12s and HIDs made to surpass one's life, and give them all the middle finger ;
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