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Andrew "Globe Collector": This pink lamp isn't air poisoned

Andrew "Globe Collector": This pink lamp isn't air poisoned

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1. https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2396&pos=239&pid=62783#msg198963
2. https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=3252&pos=2&pid=94003#msg271432

As you can see: The Osram L 36W/765 T8 lamp near the auditorium of Carmel hospital is mercury starved, since the spectrum consist of only krypton and mercury lines and a weak emission of the halophosphors, so the states that Andrew (Globe Collector), posted in the two links above are false. Mercury can react with the phosphor, glass, electrodes and other lamp materials.
When a fluorescent lamp getting impurities from outside, its ignition voltage rises to the breakdown of the air, and won't start at all.

Update Tuesday 15.1.2019 (dd.mm.yyyy): Less blurry picture of the spectrum of this mercury starved Osram L 36W T8 China:

IMG_7623 resized.jpg IMG_7531 resized.jpg IMG_7503 resized.jpg IMG_7449 (resized).jpg

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rjluna2
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Jan 10, 2019 at 06:20 AM Author: rjluna2
Maybe I should take a look at the spectrum at General Electric Helical 26 Watts CFL

Pretty, please no more Chinese failure.

dor123
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Jan 10, 2019 at 06:40 AM Author: dor123
If it start at a strange color but warming up to white color after than, capture the spectrum as fast as possible, before it would warm up, so you can see the emission before the remaining mercury vaporize.
I've seen spectra of mercury starved CFLs: It consisted only the triphosphors emissions without the mercury lines, as they are more sensitive to the argon UV radiation than the halophosphors. The lower the CCT, the redder the light would be.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

Globe Collector
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Jan 11, 2019 at 12:29 AM Author: Globe Collector
dor123, This tube is still functioning, the phosphor is still fluorescing. (Albeit at a level less than the manufacturer intended.)


Tubes postulated to be air poisoned exhibit almost no fluorescence at all and get very hot.

I have made the postulation that the effect shown at the other end of the link above is due to air poisoning, the correct way to prove or disprove this postulate is by experiment. If the results of the experiment agree with the postulate then the postulate becomes a theory.....if enough peer reviewed experiments are performed that agree with the original postulate then it effectively becomes something so close to fact that it may as well be considered as fact for all intents and purposes. This is effectively how the scientific method works.

If the results of experiment disagree with the original postulate, then that postulate is abandoned and either another (different) postulate is offered by the same source or different postulates from the peers of that original source are made and, again tested by experiment to see the experimental results agree with and support the new postulate. If so, the new postulate (mercury starvation) becomes a theory and, eventually, with enough peer reviews and experiment, fact.

At present insufficient experiments or peer reviews have been conducted to render and statements of "air poisoning" or "mercury starvation" ineffectual and fallacious. (One low resolution spectrum does not constitute sufficient experimentation.)

So, again, "for the cheap seats"....

I postulate that the observed effect of low luminous flux, high operating temperature, lack of phosphor fluorescence and alteration of emitted spectrum are as a result of a few ppm of air permeating into the tube through the meniscus seals at the exhaust tip(s).

I also postulate that the high bulb wall temperature is due to polyatomic species, i.e. N2 and O2, carrying rotational and vibrational kinetic energy to the bulb wall and imparting a significant fraction of it there by inelastic impact with the inner surface of that said bulb wall. (Monoatomic species, i.e Hg, Kr, Ar, are incapable of vibrating or rotating.)

I also postulate that the electrical impedance of the tube is altered in such a manner as to draw more power from the available electrical supply in order to justify the ultimately higher bulb wall operating temperature.

Other members of LG (including yourself) have stated, (presented seemingly as fact), but accepted (by me) as an untested postulate, that the observed effects of low luminous flux, high operating temperature, lack of phosphor fluorescence and alteration of emitted spectrum and electrical impedance are as a consequence of either mercury loss by some mysterious process or adsorbtion onto lamp materials of high surface area, presumably the phosphor as the most logical culprit.

If so, ask some questions....

Why is the mercury not adsorbed into the phosphor (or any other lamp parts of lesser surface area for that matter) in every other tube which functions as its manufacturer intended?

Why do such low luminous flux tubes get so hot? Postulate a mechanism (in the plasma) to account for the high bulb wall temperature. (Or have you never gotten close enough to such a tube in operation to touch it and feel the heat.)

How is the electrical impedance of a tube so afflicted, effected?

Does the alteration of electrical impedance account for the delivered energy to account for the observed high bulb wall temperature?

What does the spectrum (high resolution, (>1nm/mm))of a tube so effected reveal?

Are there any broad (c10-30nm wide) polyatomic, (molecular) emission bands in the said spectrum?

Is there an almost total absence* of atomic mercury emission lines in the said spectrum?

*i.e. Mercury resonance lines at 186 and 254nm have been quenched by more than 90% and visible emission lines of mercury have been quenched down to a similar intensity to the emission lines of the cold-fill inert Gp-VIII gas.

Is there an almost total absence* of very broad phosphor emission bands in the said spectrum?

The postulate of "mercury starvation" does not address ANY mechanism to explain the high bulb wall temperature. My postulate of air poisoning addresses this issue at a plasma physics level.

In order to answer most (if not all) of these questions one NEEDS to study the tube CAREFULLY on a laboratory bench, not up in a troffer on the ceiling of a school. shopping centre or train station!

Your spectra's resolution is so low one is unable to resolve the lines of Krypton. (Bright) Mercury lines, (437, 546 and 580nm can just be made out as can the green triphosphor band, but barely. One would have no nope of seeing any Group-VIII elements' lines apart from maybe neon. The presence of mercury lines disproves your postulate that this in "mercury starvation".

I have urged you to fit your spectroscope with a slit to improve the resolution, but, so far these requests have fallen upon deaf ears.

Spectroscopy is probably the most convenient and accessible experimental method LG members could use to resolve this issue of "mercury starvation/ air poisoning". But it takes two things...

Access to a tube so effected...

and, access to the spectroscopy gear....(and, no a DVD alone does not posses the resolution).

Another, even simpler experiment would simply involve measuring the tube's current and voltage drop with a True R.M.S. multimeter and back-calculating the impedance, of even simpler, comparing the readings with a set of readings made on a tube of the same type and ratings not so effected.

When I am in a position to get one of these effected tubes onto my bench, I will be running as many tests as possible on it to see if they agree with my postulate. In the meantime the offer goes out to any LG member with access to such an effected tube (and preferably one of the same type, rating and manufacturer that is NOT so effected, to use as a control) to carry out those tests for themselves and post the results.....i.e. peer review my postulate with experiment.

I think you should check the difference between a, "big fat lie" and a postulate/hypothesis before using such emotive terminology in a private message! And don't blame it on the cyber translation from Hebrew to English!

I feel you are surrcombing to peer pressure and simply "following the mob" ...." because they all say it, it must be true" ethic of which most of us humans are so afflicted, rather than turning to first principles and extracting the true answer form the only one who currently really knows the correct answer...THE TUBE ITSELF!

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

dor123
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Jan 11, 2019 at 08:28 AM Author: dor123
@Globe Collector:
Firstly: I edited the description so it don't looks offensive. Sorry that I called your things such.
Secondly: Remember than the argon and krypton produces UV wavelengths that aren't short enough to excite the halophosphors, but enough to excite some components of the triphosphors (Mainly the red one, hence the reddish color of some 827 and 840 fluorescents when they reaches to this state), or other phosphors that are used in fluorescent lamp.
In the case here, sufficient mercury vapor emission remained to excite the phosphors (In the case daylight halophosphors). When the mercury emission will be completely gone, only the krypton lines will be left in the spectrum.
See here for the spectrum of my father Osram HO 54W/865 Germany lamp, when it is glowing pink, barely mercury emission from the center part of the tube, but the triphosphors glowing because of the argon starting gas.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

dor123
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Jan 15, 2019 at 06:44 AM Author: dor123
Update Tuesday 15.1.2019 (dd.mm.yyyy): Less blurry picture of the spectrum of this mercury starved Osram L 36W T8 China:


I don't have an easy accessibility to a spectroscope, and it is a hard project for me to build a home made spectroscope, that will even last.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

Globe Collector
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Jan 15, 2019 at 07:24 AM Author: Globe Collector
Those "lines" you see dor, they are coloured images of the tube itself.

The yellow one is actually TWO images that overlap each other.

You have to make the images narrower, you need a slit.

You need to get an image at least this good....note the two yellow lines..."You can drive a truck between them". You need that here!

I simply cant repeat myself often enough!

I know the REAL reason why you can't make or purchase a spectroscope, but I don't really want to be forced to spell it out to you letter-by-letter.

It is nothing to do with you or your abilities/disabilities at all, it is nothing to do with me either, or any other LG member, but rather someone else altogether....someone who continually "puts you down", someone who continually tells you that you can't do it, someone who could help you but chooses not to....but you CAN dor, I know you can, and when you do, a whole new world of wonder will open up to you. You are mach smarter than you think, but you have been told that you are not for so long you believe it and it traps you in an invisible cage.

You simply can't make a cake with just flour and water, you can only make bread...very basic bread....you have been doing that for years now...but now it is time to get some eggs, sugar and milk and make a REAL cake!

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Jan 15, 2019 at 11:36 AM Author: dor123
I don't think that the two green lines are two image of the same line, based on the fact, that the yellow line appears only once, and after it, there is an orange line, and in the blue a very weak single blue line.
I think that what I see are both the lines of mercury and krypton together. There are some similarity between the optical spectra of low pressure mercury and krypton.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

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Jan 15, 2019 at 05:05 PM Author: Globe Collector
Read my post above again, dor, all of it.....carefully!


It seems to me that you are now capable or READING written English quite well.

How well do you think you can cope with SPOKEN English?

e.g. from a You Tube video?

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Jan 15, 2019 at 08:25 PM Author: dor123
You meaning that the yellow line are actually two lines and not one like how it looks in this image? I thought you meaning something different. Sorry. From some reasons I though you meaning that the two green lines are two images of the same line.
It is sometimes hard to me to understand even simple things that people says.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

Globe Collector
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Jan 15, 2019 at 10:02 PM Author: Globe Collector
Yes, dor, I can see your question....yes, that yellow line is actually two lines.

The green lines...one is a single (atomic) mercury line at 546nm, the other is a broad green band from the green phosphor in the TriPhosphor.....but the resolution is so low they both look like atomic lines.

Now, I've answered your question.....because I see and understand this, "?" symbol...

So I repeat...like a "stuck record"...How well do you think you can cope with SPOKEN English?

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

dor123
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Jan 16, 2019 at 12:05 AM Author: dor123
@Andrew: This isn't limited to English. This happening to me even in the Hebrew language. It is hard to me to read long and complex text.
And regarding to the other green line: The lamp is Osram L 36W/765, not Osram Lumilux L 36W/865, so it have a halophosphors coating. If the other green line would be a band of the green component of the tri-phosphors, this would be visible also in my CD-R, as a blurry green picture of the lamp. Notice that the spectra on my CD-R, looks much better in the unaided eyes than through the camera, since the eyes can play tricks that the camera can't.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

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Jan 16, 2019 at 03:06 AM Author: Globe Collector
I am NOT talking about WRITTEN Hebrew or English, but SPOKEN English.

I will link a video here with SPOKEN English...I want to know how much of it you understand?

See if you can understand Tony Attwood speaking about the abilities of those with Aspuruer's Syndrome.....like you and I.

"Click" over "CC" in the lower right hand corner so you can read it too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyjbtJ_3vqs

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

dor123
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Jan 16, 2019 at 08:00 AM Author: dor123
Spoken English I don't understand well, so I can't talk with English only tourist and students here in Israel.
But the closed captions allows me to understand the spoken English.
However the video is long, and I fearing to see it, since in the program, there are several people in the panel which may laugh which is disturbing me, and I also don't know if this program is recorded before a studio audience, which can also disturb me.

I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I hope that LED won't replace all forms of other light

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