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Sunlite High Output F54T5/Red - Spectrum (Test 2)

Sunlite High Output F54T5/Red - Spectrum (Test 2)

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A pic showing some idea of what the spectrum for this lamp looks like.

This one using a different method to obtain the spectrum-lines (still not perfect, but better than using a disc)

S54R_SP3.jpg S54R_SP1.jpg T5_LABL.jpg LP-USB.jpg

Light Information

Light Information

Manufacturer:Sunlite
Model Reference:F54T5/RED/HO (cat# 303080)
Lamp
Lamp Type:High Output Linear Fluorescent
Base:Mini Bi-Pin
Shape/Finish:T5
Service Life:20,000 hours
Fixture
Fixture Type:Fluorescent
Ballast Type:Electronic Programmed Start
Socket Type:Mini Bi-pin
Electrical
Wattage:54
Voltage:117 ?
Current:460ma
Optical
Lumen Output:3300
Lumen Efficacy:61 lm/w
Color Temperature:(Pink)
Color Rendering Index:0
Physical/Production
Dimensions:46"
Factory Location:China
Fabrication Date:unknown
Application/Use:Decorative

File information

File information

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Filename:S54R_SP3.jpg
Album name:xmaslightguy / Everything Else
Keywords:Off-Topic
File Size:158 KB
Date added:Feb 14, 2019
Dimensions:1752 x 613 pixels
Displayed:38 times
URL:https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-156263
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Globe Collector
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Feb 15, 2019 at 06:01 AM Author: Globe Collector
This is better...this is the trick dor123 uses, get right back away from the source so it subtends a smaller angle...but, it still does not possess the resolution. I will try to explain why...

When electrons jump between energy levels in atoms a very precise colour is emitted (or absorbed), this makes a spectral line that is almost infintisimally narrow. HOWEVER, this only happens if the atom in which the transition is occurring is far away from other atoms...more than 50-100 radii of whatever type of atom it is...most often in our cases as lamp collectors, it is Mercury.

Now if you cram the atoms closer together, say in a high pressure gas, or a solid, then this no longer holds to be true by the Pauli Exclusion Principle. So in a red-hot steel fire poker, where all the iron atoms share the electrons of their outer orbitals in a shiny metallic "soup"...no atom in the "macromollecule"...which is effectively the whole poker is allowed to emit the same colour as any other atom...so they all have to emit slightly different colours and a continuum is created, a "smeared out" band like a rainbow...or at least the red and orange extremities of one in the case of the hot poker.

Incandescent filament lamps are just a more extreme case of the poker...simply hotter, and the smeared out continuum produced is called Plankian Radiation, after German Physicist and lamp experiementer, Max Plank. So the "red hot", "orange hot", "yellow hot" and "white hot" you see fron ever hotter sold bodies are Plankian curves. But I digress, because the level of resolution you have attained here is good enough for Plankian Curves because they are so very wide...far wider than the visible spectrum...but we only really see them from incandescent lamps which have solid hot bodies at their radiators.

So, at one extreme are almost infinitely narrow spectral lines radiated from rarefied excited gasses and vapors where the atoms are so far apart the Pauli Exclusion Principle does not really apply...and, at the other extreme are the "broader than a barn door" Plankian Curves, or continuum emitted from hot solids where the Paili Exclusion Principle reigns supreme!

(This is the reason why "green-hot" does not exist...it is "white hot" because the peak of the Plankian Curve of a "white-hot" body, like the sun our eyes evolved under, coincides with the peak of our {much narrower} eye sensitivity curve. Hotter bodies than "white-hot", like some stars, do appear "blue-hot" or "violet hot" because the Plankian Curve peak is now on the blue side of our eye's sensitivity peak.)

However, there is a "middle ground" neither rarefied or solid, but something in between which radiates bands.
This is the real "meat in the sandwich" for the lamp collector. High pressure vapors, like in HPS, MH and HPM lamps emit bands created by three influnces....orbital types, Doppler broadening and Perssure Broadening.

Orbital types is just were oddly shaped orbitals in atoms, when they get or supply an electron to a transition, they can produce a diffuse band a few nanometeres in bandwith. One good example are the "p" lines in the spectrum of a High Pressure Sodium Lamp.


The second effect, Doppler Broadening is also clearly seen in a HPS spectrum...as the sodium vapor gets hotter, the sodium atoms rush about faster...if one happens to emit its orange resonance line while rushing towards you then that like looks a bit bluer....so instead of orange, it looks yellow. The opposite is true if the atom emits whilst rushing away, the line gets red-shifted...right at the very centre of the discharge column the temperature is high, so the broadening profile is very great...what was an infinitely narrow spectral line (or closely spaced pair of them) is now "smeared out" in a bell shaped peak 150nm wide! Near the wall of the arc tube, the vapor is cooler and the broadening profile in narrower...but there, little discharge current flows and most of the atoms are in their ground state...so they absorb the resonance radiation...that is what the resonance line(s) are...lines where, when emitted, the electron returns to the ground state...if a ground state atom is hit by this radiation, the electron can be knocked up into the resonance excited state....higher states are not really absorbed because there are few atoms near the cool wall that are in this resonance excited state, which is the gateway to all those other higher "s" and "p" states. This narrower absorbtion curve of the cool vapor near the tube wall gives rise to the feature called "resonance reversal" or "resonance imprisonment", the black fuzzy edged slot in the sodium spectrum centered where the resonance lines would normally be in a low pressure lamp. This sort of splits the resonance "line" into two broad peaks, called "bands".

Pressure broadening comes into effect at higher pressures and it broadens all the lines due to the Pauli Exclusion Principle coming into effect as the atoms are crammed closer and closer together.

Now there is one last type of emitter...fluorescent substances, like phosphors. These are relatively inert crystalline substances that hold special "dopant" or "luminopheric" atoms at relatively fixed distances apart. Take the phosphor used in most high pressure mercury lamps...it is Europium Doped Yttrium Orthovanadate. But let'ts take common table salt as a simpler example. It is sodium chloride, an alternating cubic lattice of sodium cations and chloride anions. Now imagine we renove one in every 200 of the sodium cations and place a Thallium-I ion in there instead! This ion can absorb UV and become excited, sort if like a mercury atom in a fluorescent tube when hit by an electron. This Thallium-I ion is far enough away from the next Thallium-I ion that the Peuli Exclusion Principle generally does not apply so when the excited Thallium-I ions relax and emit, the light is nearly monochromatic or not depending upon a whole host of things..the other types of "inert" atoms or ions in the lattice, how hot the lattice is what sorts of other impurities might be in the lattice and so on.

Yttrium Orthovanadate is not so dissimilar to salt, it has Yttrium cations, Orthovanadate anions , and one in every few hundred Yttrium cations is replaced by a Europium-III cation...this is the luminophor which emits the bands of interest. Note that I say "bands" and not "lines" because all the surrounding Yttrium and Orthovanadate ions are not as inert as one would think and they do modify the Europium ion's emitting in subtle ways. Some lamps have some of the Orthovanadate ions substituted with Orthophosphate or Orthoborate ions...this widens the red Europium band and shifts it to the orange a bit (by a process I do not fully understand, but it somehow couples the Europium III ions closer, as if they were moved closer to each other and more effected by the Pauli Exclusion Principle)...this is the difference between a lamp engineer and a chemist...the subtle stuff.

And this is what we strive to see...the subtle stuff. And this is why our spectra need reasonably high resolution, about 1nm/mm.

I will elucidate...imagine you stretch out the visible spectrum, which extends from 400nm (Violet) to 700nm(Deep Red)...and you make it's image 300mm (that is 11.8 inches, so just shy of one foot) wide. Now each millimetere you move along the image corresponds to a change in 1nm of wavelength of the colour represented. This is about the minimum viable for lamp work, anything less and one cannot distinguish an atomic spectral line from a broader band...that could be 3nm wide for some phosphors or oddball atomic transitions up to 150nm wide.


The way an instrument increases its resolution is to have a slit out front. Lets say you project your image from your CD as a real image on a wall using lenses...not the virtual image you see in the disc itself. If you make that image a foot wide, the slit must be set to 1mm wide to get that magic 1mm/nm resolution. Now...if you put a DVD in instead, it disperses the spectrum more, so now the image is 18" wide...so you can widen the slit to 1.5mm to get the same resolution, with greater dispersion and get 50% more light in theough the wider slit, but disperse it over 50% more wall, so the intensity of the image remains the same. But if you leave the slit at 1mm, then the DVD will give greater resolution, but the image will be only 66% as bright....this is ALWAYS the tradeoff, sensitivity vs resolution...but for us globe collectors we have plenty of light, it is not as if this is some distant star we are measuring the spectrum of.

Here, you are using the diameter of the tube itself as the slit...if you got a lot further away, the "slit" would get narrower, but the inverse square law would rapidly dominate and things would get real dim, real quick.


On my screen, the whole spectrum, from 400-700 is about 45mm wide. The image of the tube is 3mm wide. 45mm corresponds to 6.6nm/mm (divide the 300nm bandwidth of the visible range by the width of the image on the screen, so 300/45 = 6.66.)

But then there is the width if the images of the tube, 3mm, this corresponds to 3mm x 6.666nm/mm = 20nm, so in a hi-res spectrum each 3mm of width should encompass 20nm of bandwidth, but because of the images of the tube being so wide, this confines this 3mm wide track to just one monochromatic colour of infinite thinness!! So any interesting features, like Europium-III bands in a red tube phosphor which are 5-30nm wide are essentially blurred out, smeared over and obliterated!

I have been "hammering" dor123 about this for over seven years That is why the Pringles Can was posted...look at its date!)...but he's so damn stubborn, all his spectra, and all the time taken to photograph them, are worthless and his time, wasted. All for want of a razor blade soldered to the bum of a Pringles Can!

All the "magic" happens in those last few hundred microns between the razor blade edges...it is as if you have had cataracts all your life, and suddenly you were given new lenses and the world burst in crystal clear!

I will draw a diagram of the Pringles Can and post it up, so you can see just how much "nothing" is in it!


Here is an interesting post where Max hammers an SDW-T 35w "black-body" sodium lamp to within a boomtienth of its existence... to get some spectra.
I have done something similar to Max with my series of pictures showing resonance reversal, but Max has taken it to the far extreme.


Dor makes some very intelligent and insightful comments and demonstrates his knowledge is far in excess of what most think it is...he just has to get over his stubborn little "wall" to the wonders beyond...

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Feb 15, 2019 at 05:53 PM Author: xmaslightguy
@Globe Collector:
In this case I didn't use a disc of any sort, but what basically is diffraction-grating, & took the pic directly through that.

Does dimming a fluorescent change its spectrum?
Thing is, I had to be a good 6-7 feet away to even get everything in the pic (lamp had to be centered or the camera wouldn't focus) .. there was a good bit of black space between the lamp & that first blue line (I simply cropped out the rest of the pic since it wasn't really relevant)
It was kinda difficult to even get this 'good' - multiple pic's taken from different heights & such (using m tripod woulda helped some, but not very practical when standing on stairs to get enough above the fixture. I did block out the reflective fixture with black paper, which deff helped)
...I want to experiment more with the little setup I did, just out of curiosity more than anything

I'm deff interested in seeing a diagram of just how the Pringles can is done! And I plan on saving the next one I get
I have probably hundreds of 'junk' CD's, not sure if I have any DVDs like that though. (Just out of curiosity, would a BluRay, and then BluRay-4k each give an increasingly higher higher resolution? Or is there a point at which it becomes meaningless)

...oh and by the way, I really enjoy your long technical posts on people's pictures here! Even though the science sometimes goes a bit over my head..


----------------------------
Edit1:
Interesting discussion on that pic form Max.
(I can't see the pic since that is one of a couple users I purposly have blocked)

Edit2:
I also tried a different approach tonight, this time using a thin slit in a piece of black paper (note the bottom left corner of the updated pic)...You can sorts make out the orange/yellow lines in that (if only the camera could "see" what I see, it'd all be there!)

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 15, 2019 at 10:55 PM Author: Globe Collector
1: Using a transmission grating is definitely easier than using disks but a lot of the light simply goes straight through on zero blaze and is wasted. With disks, they act as reflection gratings and create brighter spectra, but we have loads of light to waste anyhow.

2: With a low pressure lamp like this dimming won't make any differences you would notice with the type of spectroscopy we are attempting. With a professional instrument you would notice some small changes. With High Pressure lamps, this is different, as Max and I have shown with High Pressure Sodium lamps.

3: Fiddle-Farting around with angles, distances and camera idiosyncrasies is the best way to go, because this is how you learn and get a "git instinct" for what you are doing ...if I do this I get closer to the desired result, if I do that I get something worse, so I won't do that again! You explore right out to the boundaries of the problem...something you won't do if you follow somebody else's list of instructions.

4: Using a mirror might help you get back away from the luminaire without actually getting right back up the stairs or up against the wall, because it allows you to fold the light path and fit a longer path into a small room.

5: The greater the data density on any disk, the closer the track spacing and the greater the dispersion not resoultion...this can have disadvantages and advantages...greater dispersion moves higher blazings further away, but makes the image dimmer. Some of the really dense data format disks have coloured filters that block whole parts of the spectrum.

I will make a diagram explaining dispersion and higher blazings when I do the diagram.

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Feb 16, 2019 at 03:25 AM Author: Globe Collector
Here is the diagram, one of three, intended to be used in conjunction with the original seven-year-old images!


https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2488&pos=110&pid=70783 Razor Blade Slit

https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2488&pos=111&pid=70782 Sighting down the tube, (view from where disc is put) through letterbox slot in breakfast cereal stop to slit beyond at the far end.

https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2488&pos=112&pid=70781 Rough as guts shot of Frunhoffer lines of the sun using Pringles Can and demonstrating the slit is narrow enough...if the slit is too wide, Frunhoffer absorbentce lines on stars' spectra can't be seen at all, so this is a good test.

https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2488&pos=113&pid=70780 Sighting UP the tube to the disk monochromator. This unit was composed of TWO Pringles cans, one with the slit and cardboard stop, the other with the disk and camera appeture.


https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2488&pos=108&pid=70785 First test spectrum using a CD minochromator and Colour 840 CFLi as a source.

https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2488&pos=107&pid=70786 "Blown Up" part of second spectrum, done using Microsoft paint to cut a narrow piece of the image perpendicular to the lines, then stretch it to make it wide again and so the lines stretch right across it. I think this used a DVD monochromator.

The mercury 546nm lime green line can be seen embedded in the wide green TriPhosphor component band on the left. The first to yellow lines, just right of centre, are the mercury yellow doublet at 577 and 579nm, so 2nm apart. If you can resolve these, you know you are on the right track. Here, you could "drive a truck between" them....

To the right of the mercury yellow doublet is a bunch of very subtle orange and red bands emitted by the Yttrium-Europium Oxide red phosphor component...this is was we are aiming for from your tube!!

The mercury violet-blue 435nm and deep violet 407 and 404nm lines are off to the left and blocked by dyes in the disk and the geometry of the apparatus.

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Feb 16, 2019 at 03:53 PM Author: xmaslightguy
Nice to see those diagrams Globe Collector!

Now looking at those, what you were saying in the original pic makes more sense

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 16, 2019 at 10:10 PM Author: xmaslightguy
Simply looking at it .. a CD -vs- DVD .. whoa the difference in them!
Interestingly a blu-ray disc simply will not do the spectrum thing. You can get a little bit of dim blue & green color if you fumble around with the disc enough, but no nice bright rainbow-ish thing even with bright white light.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 16, 2019 at 10:18 PM Author: Globe Collector
I have never actually seen a Blu-Ray disc, but they are about...I have seen the transport mech that reads them though.

Had you seen all the other old posts I'd made about the Pringles Can....?

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Feb 16, 2019 at 11:30 PM Author: xmaslightguy
I only buy movies on Blu-Ray now since I have the player & a HDTV .. they've become completely mainstream here & you can even get sales in the $5-$7 range. I think there's some sorta blue coating on the discs that blocks the spectrum-ing.
There is also a 4k Blu-Ray out now for Ultra-HD .. that I don't have.

I'm not sure if I saw all your Pringles can pic's, but I know it was multiple of them - the ones you linked, and some others too.
Really does work out well for being made out of such simple stuff.

---------
One thing I noticed with a DVD (just holding it & looking at the spectrum lines) is its actually a bit hard to get the full thing from blue-through red, on the disc, unless you sit real close...

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Mar 16, 2019 at 05:01 PM Author: HomeBrewLamps
Why is this in off topic?

~Owen

Mercury Vapor LampHigh Pressure Sodium Scavenger, Urban Explorer, Lighting Enthusiast and Creator of homebrewlamps Cool High Pressure SodiumMercury Vapor Lamp

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Mar 16, 2019 at 11:07 PM Author: xmaslightguy
@HomeBrewLamps:
Because I'd done a couple different versions of this on the same lamp, and they weren't directly showing lights...
Trying not to junk up the main page!

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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