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One of first mercury lamp

One of first mercury lamp

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The old mercury lamp with fused silica arc tube, very special phosphor (sulphide)

F_188_(0)_BGW_HQP_250W.jpg F_165_EYE_Iwasaki_H_2000_W.jpg 35.jpg G_02_Philips_SP_1000.jpg

Light Information

Light Information

Manufacturer:Osram - G.E.C.
Lamp
Lamp Type:MBF-V
Base:Ba22d-3
Electrical
Wattage:80
Physical/Production
Factory Location:U.K.

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Filename:35.jpg
Album name:Trianero2012 / Mercury lamps
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Keywords:Lamps
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Date added:Aug 31, 2012
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rjluna2
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Aug 31, 2012 at 10:38 AM Author: rjluna2
The globe must be big due to the decomposition of Sulfur molcules from the heat/UV radation of the arc tube.

Pretty, please no more Chinese failure.

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Aug 31, 2012 at 11:13 AM Author: dor123
The reason for the large globe, is because the phosphor (Zinc cadmium sulphide and another blue phosphor) temperature, shouldn't exceed 120-130*C (248-266*F), before it will be overheated and will reduces its performance.

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 230-240V, 50hz country.

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Aug 31, 2012 at 11:47 AM Author: Ash
Handmade arc tube Wow
James
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Aug 31, 2012 at 01:15 PM Author: James
This lamp is really a very important milestone in the history of light source development! If I am not mistaken, I think it was the very first discharge lamp to make use of a phosphor-coated outer bulb in an effort to try and raise the colour rendering properties of the mercury discharge. It's wonderful to see how transparent the coating is on this early design.

Stan, have you ever lit this lamp up, and might it be possible for you to make a photograph of it in operation? It would be most interesting to see this very thin phosphor coating glowing while the arc tube is also in operation. Possibly before the lamp has warmed up fully, so that it is possible to observe the colour of the fluorescence from the phosphor. If camera exposure settings would permit it, maybe it would also be possible to capture its colour after the lamp has warmed up as well? I think with this kind of Zinc Sulphide phosphor, the colour of fluorescence is probably quite different in cold and hot state.
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Verd a ray classic.


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Aug 31, 2012 at 01:19 PM Author: Silverliner
I agree with James I would love to see this lamp lit if possible!

May all the great lighting technologies have their place in history.

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Aug 31, 2012 at 01:40 PM Author: Ash
Is it sure of the same properties as today's 80W mercury lamp ? Perhaps better to underpower it ?
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Aug 31, 2012 at 02:09 PM Author: AngryHorse
A total gem

Current: UK 230V, 50Hz
Power provider: e.on energy
Street lighting in our town: Philips UniStreet LED

"Beauty fades, dumb is forever".......Judge Judy Cheesy

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Aug 31, 2012 at 11:25 PM Author: Globe Collector
So many make the mistake of thinking this early phosphor is sulphur.
I think a little basic history and chemistry is in order here.
Sulphur/sulfur is an ELEMENT, atomic number 16 on the periodic table, like ELENEMT no 15, phosphorus, right next to it, neither of them possess any fluorescent or phosphorescent properties. Phosphorus does exhibit CHEMILUMINESCENCE in the presence of oxygen.
Both Sulphur and phosphorus possess more than one allotrope, this means that the atoms react with themselves in different ways and numbers, forming chemical bonds between the atoms, making different forms of the element.

Here is the Wikipaedia page for Sulphur, the element, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur

Here is the Wikipaedia page for Phosphorus, the element, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus

The different forms are "compounds" made with itself! A compound forms when two atoms make a chemical bond!

Now, A PHOSPHOR, like used in a lamp, is not PHOSPHORUS, it is a compound, where many different elements have reacted and formed chemical bonds. Some PHOSPHORS do contain PHOSPHORUS as one of the constituent elements, usually the PHOSPHATE radical (PO4) 3-
One typical example is Halophosphor, Ca5(PO4)3F:Ca5(PO4)3Cl
Many Phosphors do NOT have PHOSPHORUS as a constituent, e.g HPL-N Phosphor 99YtVO4:EuVO4
Now phosphors usually work because of a slight deliberate impurity called an "activator", take the HPL-N phosphor, it is a crystal lattice of alternating Yt3+ and (VO4)3- ions, but one in every 100 Yt3+ ions has been replaced by an Eu3+ ion. These are the luminopheric centres. These are what absorb the U.V. and emit red light. If every ion was a Eu3+ the Pauli exclusion principle would prevent them from working, I won't go into detail here.
This phosphor in this lamp of Stan's, is 99ZnS:Cu2S, white zinc sulphIDE, a compound formed when zinc and sulphur are heated together and react. It is white when pure. I tiny amount of copper I, Cu+, has been added as Cu2S, this gives it this slight yellow tinge and is the luminophor.
Elemental sulphur is a lot yellower, would not fluoresce and would melt and vaporize from the heat of the arc tube and react with the metals in the bulb corroding them to sulphides.
Phosphors were discovered when some natural minerals, chemically pure compounds which are the components of rocks such as Bolongia Spar, a natural outcropping of Barium Sulphate, BaSO4, slightly contaminated with Manganese outcroppong near Bolongia, Italy, was found to Phosphoresce, that is, continue to emit light after the exciting light was removed. This phenomenon has been known for hundreds of years because people exposed this stuff to the sun, then took it inside into a dark room and had enigh time for their eyes to dark adjust and they saw the "magical stone" glowing eeriely in the darkened room.
Here is the Wikipaedia page for Phosphorescence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence

Later, when powerful artificial sources of light, like Humphry Davy's carbon arc, were developed, the phenomenon of Fluorescence was observed also, where the emission only occurs while the excitation is present too. Many of the same minerals exhibiting phosphorescence, exhibited fluorescence too, but they are distinctly different physical procesies. Some old radar tubes exhibit blue fluorescence but orange phosphorescence. The discovery of fluorescence is quite recent, within the last 200 years or so.
Here is the page for Fluorescence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence
This lamp's phosphor is based on Sphalarite, a naturally occurring zinc sulphide contaminated with copper, cadmium and cobalt. By studying how the sphalarite worked as a fluorescent substance, a tailor made artefical form was made, with just the right ammount of copper, as it was discivered, to maximize the intensity of the (red) fluorescence. Other metal impurities worked too, but were not red and thus no good for a mercury lamp.
The drawback of this phosphor is that it does not work very well when hot and it slight yellowish tinge reduces the overall eficcacy of the lamp.
Zinc Sulphide phosphored lamps like this are the rarest of the rare antecedents of all other phosphor coated mercury lamps. They represent the very genesis of the idea that phosphors can be used to colour-correct high pressure mercury lamps.
This lamp is an absolute treasure and one of the MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY significant lamps displayed on this site.
Thank you so much, Stan for sharing this treasure with us all.

@James, Arn't you the lucky owner of an MAF/V 400!! Did I not see one on your web-site? The MAF/V has the same phosphor, but because of the glass arc tube it is only excited by the 365nm UV-A line. In this lamp of Stan's it will be exposed to this line as well as the resonance lines at 253 and 186nm. One would expect the phosphor emission to be the same regardless of the excitation though, so the ultimate spectrum of the MAF/V should be similar to this!

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Sep 01, 2012 at 12:31 AM Author: dor123
GC quote: "@James, Arn't you the lucky owner of an MAF/V 400!! Did I not see one on your web-site? The MAF/V has the same phosphor, but because of the glass arc tube it is only excited by the 365nm UV-A line. In this lamp of Stan's it will be exposed to this line as well as the resonance lines at 253 and 186nm. One would expect the phosphor emission to be the same regardless of the excitation though, so the ultimate spectrum of the MAF/V should be similar to this!"

GC: The MAF/V spectrum is a bit different. Because the (Zn,Cd) S:Cu phosphor blocks much of the blue mercury lines and the light appeared greenish, cadmium was added to the arctube to generate an extra blue light, and shift the light back to white, but this results in a small loss of efficiency.
The lamp in this picture shouldn't needs this cadmium dosing, because of the arctube allows the shortwave UV to be passed.
James have this Philips Philora HPL300 MV lamp , which have two phosphors: One is the same as the MAF/V ((Zn,Cd) S:Cu), and the other is ZnS:Ag that produce a blue lines to replace the weak blue mercury lines and the inefficient cadmium doping.

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 230-240V, 50hz country.

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Sep 01, 2012 at 04:37 AM Author: James
@dor: There is indeed an MAF/V lamp on my website, but this the only one which doesn't actually belong to me! It is with another museum. However in view of its extreme rarity I decided to make an exception and document it on my pages, after being fortunate enough to be able to borrow it for a brief period to measure its photoelectrical properties. The MBF/V lamp will almost certainly have a different phosphor, as you describe.

Unfortunately the Philora HPL300 on my website is dead, the arc tube has leaked, so I have never been able to measure this and determine its actual spectrum. Recently though I have found another of these in the archives of another museum in UK. Taking any item out of a public museum is as tough as trying to get blood out of a stone, even if it has been locked in a dusty archive for the past 75 years and nobody shows the slightest interest in it and the museum has no plans to ever exhibit it! But one day I hope to be able to persuade them to part with it for a few days and be able to measure that also.


@GC: Even before the first sulphide mercury lamps, did you know that fluorescence was being commercially used as early as 1905? I would not call it a lamp as such, because it was more a combination of a mercury lamp with a fluorescent luminaire. It was marketed by the Cooper-Hewitt Company of NY, who began painting the reflectors of the luminaires for their lamps with the red dye rhodamine. This has an extremely weak red fluorescence under stimulation by blue light. The improvement to the colour was, however, extremely weak and of so little value that it was abandoned after a few years.
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Sep 01, 2012 at 04:53 AM Author: Globe Collector
I knew about the Cooper-Hewitts but not the Rhodamine!
I too have held an MAF/V furstratingly in my paws, it was Fin's, but he sold it to Joe Maureth! UGHHHHHH!!!!!!
You frustrated by Musea who have NOT a CLUE of what they sit on too!!!
Stan gave Phil Andrews some TESLA Graphite Ended Expieremental Metal Halides, when Phil passed away, I was going to approach Sue about the collection, but had to go at Viet Nam to sponsor my now, wife here, I could not do both. Sue sold the collection to the Princess Alexandra Museum in Launceston where it has "disappeared" into the basement vault along with the two M-Hs from Stan. Some of it has "surfaced" at the Hydro Electric Corporation's Waddamana-B Power Station Museum, I can see Phil's log numbers still on the lamps, but the curators denied they were his!
Fin and I also know the location of a "saussage" MAF/V in similar circumstances!

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!





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Sep 02, 2012 at 02:44 PM Author:
And now they just ban it like it was so easy to make. I hope the ban doesn't spread to Singapore.
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Sep 02, 2012 at 09:35 PM Author: Globe Collector
The important stuff is ALWAYS in the detail. I do not know haw many times I have seen some "ignorant plonk" try to undo a really tight Philips-Head screw with a Pozi-Drive screwdriver and subsequently wonder why the head of the screw strips out. and subsequently needs to be drilled out. (This "Near Enough is Good Enough" attitude is Hoarse Shut). Like my dopey next door neighbour who tried to drill through a galvanized steel fence post with the drill set to "hammer", (used only when drilling into brick or concrete with special Tungsten-Carbide/Cobalt tipped drill bits.)
He made loads if noise, blunted the drill bit in seconds and thought I was some sort of magician when I jumped the fence with a battery drill and sharp drill bit which went through the steel post in about 20 seconds!
Same with these lamps, real rare ones, like this and others, of Stan's represent REAL IMOPRTANT developmental steps in the way modern lamps have come about. If these few samples are lost, the developmental thread is broken and the details of how problems were solved are lost. This lamp may seem very naieve by today's standards, but in its day, c1935, it was the leading edge of thecnology and know-how.
People like Stan, or ourselves have the background knowledge and forethought to realize when we see such a thing, that it IS important to our industrial history and save it from the ignorant "plonks" who cannot distinguish it from just an ordinary lamp.

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

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Sep 04, 2012 at 01:47 AM Author: Trianero2012
By the way - rhodamine layer (how "solid solution" in jelly) was used also as external phosphor in Sowietunion, improved spectrum in red part fluorescent lamps
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Sep 04, 2012 at 07:27 AM Author: Globe Collector
To you have any examples of Rhodamine phosphored lamps Stan?

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Sep 04, 2012 at 08:09 AM Author: Trianero2012
No, all informations from UdSSR was uncertified. So, it it was published in russian technical print, maybe it was only wishful thinking. My personal tests with layer of rhodamine gelatine in solid form, looks only more red color. The glass of tube was, certainly, only usual soft glass
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Sep 04, 2012 at 07:10 PM Author: Globe Collector
This is the first time I have ever heard of an organic phosphor!
Here is the Wikipeadia page in the Rhodamine compounds, similar structure to phenolphthalien and fluorecene!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodamine

Stan, I have yet another annoying question for you. What do you know about UdSSR lamp "brand" symbols, like the one I have posted here....
http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=1&pid=69011


For years I have wanted to correlate these odd symbols with the "name of the brand" and the location of the plant where they were made.
I put a post on "allthingslighting.co.uk" but got no responses.
Oops, sorry, James and Colin have responded!
http://www.allthingslighting.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1534

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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EYE H80 Mercury Vapour


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Sep 06, 2012 at 11:19 AM Author: BG101
A bit OT but I agree fully with muppets not knowing how to drill holes. Also hammer-action should NEVER be used on brick as it smashes a large chunk out the other side if drilling right through and also damages the mortar bond. My neat hole for the satellite and cable connections is now joined by a chunk missing from the decorative facing brick where the plonker who installed my Sky system used a hammer drill


BG

Say NO to DICTATORSHIP in the form of bulb/tube/ballast bans !!

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Sep 06, 2012 at 06:54 PM Author: Globe Collector
Ever tried drilling through extruded Vietnamese bricks, particularly when they are damp. I one did this in Viet Nam to a rendered wall, It was like drilling through a damp biscuit!
You know, Stan, I never really looked at the brand of this lamp. I see it is G.E.C., now I know why the arc tube looks so familiar, it is because I have some early G.E.C. mercurys, (MB-Vs) with the same handmade cylinderical seal arc tubes!
The phosphor coated version is always rarer though, I just wish I could write that "F" in the box and have the lamp inside "magically" turn into the phosphor coated version!
This photograph illustrates very clearly the coarse grained nature of this early sulphIDE phosphor!
Thanks again Stan!

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Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Dec 13, 2015 at 12:37 AM Author: Solanaceae
You get this lit Stan?

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Sep 26, 2018 at 07:36 AM Author: sox35
This is a real piece of history, a wonderful lamp, hopefully one day I may own something equally amazing

Ria in Aberdeen
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Sep 26, 2018 at 04:54 PM Author: Globe Collector
The chances of finding one of these in the remainder of your lifetime is lass than Liz letting you take the Crown Jewels home for a week!

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

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Sep 26, 2018 at 05:35 PM Author: Lumex120
How old would this thing be? I'm guessing 1910s-20s?

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Sep 27, 2018 at 04:20 AM Author: Globe Collector
No, no, no, no , no, noooo....!

G.E.C. Hirst Labs Wembley, London, about 1937 to 1945, so WW-II and Just Before. No fully enclosed discharge lamps existed way back in the first decades of the twentieth century....Cooper Hewitts were semi-sealed. Its about the same age as a North American A-H1.


Here's a shot of the Hirst Labs before they were demolished. The magnetron was developed there too...and kept deathly secret during WW-II.


One interesting point about this phosphor....unlike modern phosphors which absorb the Mercury Resonance Lines at 183 and 257nm, this phosphor is only excited my Mercury's UVA line at 365nm.

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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