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已确定,那个镇流器的电路图我画错了,这个才是正确的,因为它点亮灯管了,这个过程实在是Very difficult.

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Globe Collector
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Mar 08, 2019 at 06:16 PM Author: Globe Collector
Cyber translation of the above comment..."I have determined that the circuit diagram of the ballast is wrong. This is correct because it lights up the lamp. This process is really really difficult."


Hello "Men of God"....你好 "Men of God"

It is not that difficult if you are experienced in electronics. 如果您有电子方面的经验,那就不难了。

What you have drawn here is a "black box" wiring diagram 你在这里画的是一个“黑匣子”接线图

You are trying to work out what is inside the "black box" 你正试图找出“黑匣子”里面的东西

A "black box" diagram is for electricians and installers “黑匣子”图表适用于电工和安装人员

You, like me, seek to UNDERSTAND what is going on inside the "black box" 你和我一样,试图理解“黑匣子”里面发生的事情

You must convert it from a "wiring diagram" into a "circuit diagram" or "schematic" 您必须将它从“接线图”转换为“电路图”或“原理图”

By doing this you will get insight from the mind of the person who designed it originally 通过这样做,您将从最初设计它的人的头脑中获得洞察力

You will go from "knowing how to use it" to "understanding how it works" 你将从“知道如何使用它”到“理解它如何工作”

I will try to lead you through this process, step by step with the aid of diagrams 我将尝试借助图表逐步引导您完成此过程

I have done the same as you are doing now, but I persisted and got a lot further 我和你现在做的一样,但是我坚持了下来并且进一步发展了

I wish to help you because you have already gone part of the way along the journey 我希望能帮助你,因为你已经走了一段路

I now want to help you finish that journey you started 我现在想帮助你完成你开始的旅程


I will need to upload a lot of images to help you 我需要上传大量图片来帮助你

This will be a slow process as we can only upload ten images each day 这将是一个缓慢的过程,因为我们每天只能上传十张图像

I will need to upload 40 images of diagrams 我需要上传40张图表图片

I need to link those images back to this chat....but I don't know how....yet 我需要将这些图像链接回此聊天....但我不知道如何....

I will go and upload the first 10 images and then attempt to link them back here 我将上传前10张图片然后尝试将它们链接回来

If I cannot work out how to link them back here, I will link to their pages externally 如果我无法弄清楚如何将它们链接回来,我会在外部链接到他们的页面

The images will be easier for you to understand than English text or poor cyber putong hua/Mandarin 这些图像比英文文本或糟糕的网络普通话/普通话更容易理解

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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Mar 09, 2019 at 05:01 AM Author: Globe Collector
O.K. I have some images up...I will try to link to them 好。 我有一些图片......我会尝试链接到它们



Here is your original attempt at extracting the circuit. 这是您最初提取电路的尝试。

There is a lot of useful information in this effort despite any mistakes 尽管有任何错误,但在这项工作中有很多有用的信息

This will be used as a guide for the following steps and tests 这将用作以下步骤和测试的指南

One area is very unclear, it has been circled in red 一个区域非常不清楚,它已被红色圈出

Careful attention needs to be taken of this area to make it more clear 需要特别注意这个区域,以使其更清晰

I believe this gear works on the principle of series resonance 我相信这个装置的工作原理是串联共振。

The basis of this belief is the very high, 450v rating of the larger capacitor. 这种信念的基础是较大的电容器的450v额定值。

This voltage rating of the larger capacitor is much greater than the supply voltage. 较大电容器的额定电压远大于电源电压。

I will link to an educational web site that explains series resonance. 我将链接到一个解释串联共振的教育网站

Please tell me if this link works from your end? 如果此链接从您的终端连接,请告诉我??


This circuit has three parts 该电路有三个部分

1) A pre-heat transformer to heat all four electrodes before the discharge starts 预热变压器在放电开始前加热所有四个电极

2) An auto-transformer to step up the voltage to help the tubes start 一个自动变压器,用于升压电压以帮助灯启动

3) A series resonant, parallel loaded architecture to maintain and stabilize the discharges in the lamps 串联谐振,并联负载架构,用于维持和稳定灯中的放电

The larger (30uF) capacitor is the resonant capacitor in the series resonant circuit mentioned in 3 较大的(30uF)电容器是3中提到的串联谐振电路中的谐振电容器

The value of this capacitor is critical to operation of the circuit 该电容的值对电路的运行至关重要

If this value is chosen incorrectly the circuit could catch on fire or something worse! 如果错误地选择了这个值,电路可能会着火或更糟糕! !!

I think this device is from Japan 我认为这个设备来自日本

Japan is a very unusual country because part of its electric grid is 50Hz and part of it is 60Hz.

日本是一个非常不寻常的国家,因为它的部分电网是50Hz,部分是60Hz。

You need to know which part of Japan this device came from, the 50Hz part or the 60Hz part.你需要知道这个日本来自哪个部分,50Hz部分或60Hz部分。

If it is from the 50Hz part, you have no problems, it should work with a 100v transformer 如果它来自50Hz部分,你没有问题,它应该在100v变压器上正常工作

If it is from the 60Hz part, you have a problem and need to change the value of the 30uF capacitor.
如果它来自60Hz部分,则存在问题,需要更改30uF电容的值。

You need to determine which way to change the value of the capacitor, increase to 36uF or decrease to 24uF. 您需要确定改变电容值的方法,增加到36uF或降低到24uF。

One way it will work normally, the other way it might hit resonance and catch on fire!
一种方式它将正常工作,另一种方式它可能会击中共振并着火!!!!

I will say more about this later...我稍后会详细说明......

The smaller 470nF capacitor is relatively unimportant 这个较小的470nF电容相对不重要

It is simply for radio interference suppression, (RFI Suppression) 它仅用于抑制无线电干扰,(RFI抑制)


Using your diagram as an imperfect guide I will show you how to test this device 使用您的图片作为不完美的指南,我将向您展示如何测试此设备

We start with the electrode preheat function using passive resistance measurements on the unpowered device 我们从电极预热功能开始,在无动力设备上使用被动电阻测量



Here is the device with all lamps and capacitors connected 这是装有所有外部灯和电容器的设备

The device itself is shown as a mystery "black box" 设备本身被描绘成一个神秘的“黑匣子”


From your picture (0) I know you found a pre-heat winding for the lower two electrodes.从你的照片(0)我知道你发现了底部两个电极的预热绕组。

We will apply this discovery to the top two electrodes and re verify the bottom two
我们将这个发现应用于顶部的两个电极并重新验证底部两个

The important step is to verify your discoveries by a number of different tests
重要的一步是通过许多不同的测试来验证您的发现

We will initially use resistance as the test parameter
我们将首先测试阻力

We will come back and test voltage later
我们稍后会回来测试电压




Remove the lamps 取下灯泡

Set your Multi Mater to low resistance range 将万用表设置为低电阻范围

Measure across the supply connections 测量供应连接

You are looking to verify if a primary transformer winding exists 您正在寻找验证主变压器绕组是否存在

The resistance should be moderately high 阻力应该适中



Here we do the same across the first suspected electrode pre-heat secondary winding 在这里,我们在第一个可疑电极预热次级绕组上做同样的事情

The resistance should be quite low 阻力应该很低



Do the same here for the other top electrode 对于其他顶部电极,请执行相同的操作

The resistance should be nearly the same 阻力应该几乎相同



Again, do the same for the lower winding you have already found 再次,对于之前已经发现的下部绕组也一样

The resistance should be lower as this winding drives two electrodes in parallel
由于该绕组并联驱动两个电极,因此电阻应该更低

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

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Mar 09, 2019 at 06:59 AM Author: Globe Collector
This concludes all suspected pre-heat transformer windings 这就结束了所有可疑的预热变压器绕组

Now we measure between the sets of secondary windings to verify they are not connected 现在我们在次级绕组组之间测量,以验证它们没有连接



I does not matter which end of each winding the meter probe is put on because there is just a low resistance between them 仪表探头的每个绕组的哪一端都没有关系,因为它们之间的电阻很小

These readings should return high values of resistance or open circuits 这些读数应返回高电阻值或开路



This measurement might give a value about five times the value across the supply connection此测量值的值可能是电源连接值的五倍左右

So about 500-800 ohms 所以大约500-800欧姆

If it measures open circuit, we will need to re-think everything如果它测量开路,我们将需要重新思考一切

These measurements, between the sets of pre-heat windings are the really important ones that are most revealing if its secrets 在预热绕组组之间的这些测量是揭示其秘密的非常重要的测量



This measurement is important to reveal of the lower pre-heat winding is fully electrically isolated 该测量对于揭示下部预热绕组是完全电隔离是重要的

If this is open circuit, the pre-heat winding is isolated and the two lamps are in series
如果这是开路的,则预热绕组被隔离并且两个灯串联

If this measures a high resistance then remove the 470nF capacitor and do the test again.
如果这测量到高电阻,则移除470nF电容并再次进行测试。

If it still measures a high resistance, c800 Ohms, we will need to rethink the whole circuit
如果仍然测量高电阻,c800欧姆,我们将需要重新考虑整个电路

If it measures open circuit, then the theory and practical agree and we are discovering more
如果它测量开路,那么理论和实践是一致的,我们正在发现更多

It is important to take a lot of care at this point 在这一点上需要非常小心



We now should have enough information to power up the unit and do some voltage tests.
我们现在应该有足够的信息来启动设备并进行一些电压测试。

Take all the usual precautions and care when energizing the unit. 在为设备通电时,请采取所有常规预防措施和注意事项。

It can produce lethal voltages that can kill if they get connected across your heart! 它可以产生致命的电压,如果它们连接在你的心脏上就可以杀死你! !!!!!!!

And you do not know which parts of the circuit they will appear on 而且你不知道它们会出现在电路的哪个部分

Treat every circuit node as dangerous 将每个电路节点都视为危险

As we suspect this circuit is series resonant 我们怀疑这个电路是串联谐振的

and if it hits resonance it will short circuit the supply 如果它发出共振,它会使电源短路

So, as a precaution, we place a 60-100w incandescent lamp in series with the supply live side 因此,作为预防措施,我们将60-100W白炽灯与供电带电串联

As a second precaution, we remove the capacitors so it can not resonate 作为第二个预防措施,我们拆除电容器,使其不再具有共振能力

Using the series incandescent lamp is good practice on any workbench.使用与被测设备串联的白炽灯是任何工作台的良好实践

It will not protect you from electrocution, but it will prevent you shorting the supply 它不会保护您免受电击,但它会阻止您短路供电

The incandescent lamp will also give you some idea of the power your device under test is drawing by how much it glows 白炽灯还可以让您了解被测设备的功率是如何照亮它的亮度

Use only incandescent lamps for this purpose, not CFL or LED, 仅使用白炽灯,而不是CFL或LED

Keep this incandescent lamp well away from your work area使这盏白炽灯远离工作区域

More when I can Upload more diagrams当我能够上传更多图片时,我会继续

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

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Mar 10, 2019 at 12:04 AM Author: Globe Collector
The next part is to determine where the other two functions are in the "black box" 下一部分是确定“黑匣子”中其他两个功能的位置

and verify the pre-heat secondary windings with voltage measurements 并通过电压测量验证预热次级绕组

So, the other two functions are:-那么,另外两个功能是: -

2) Step-up auto-transformer 升压自耦变压器

3) Inductive part of Series resonant or semi-resonant lamp matching circuit 串联谐振或半谐振灯匹配电路的电感部分

These two functions are not as separate as you might think 这两个功能并不像你想象的那样独立

If there is an auto-transformer, it will share the primary of the pre-heat transformer 如果有自耦变压器,它将共用预热变压器的初级

If there is a series-resonant inductor or coil it will be the secondary winding of an auto-transformer 如果有串联谐振电感或线圈,它将成为自耦变压器的次级绕组

the magnetic coupling back to the primary winding will be loose so it behaves more like in inductor and less like a secondary 回到初级绕组的磁耦合将会松动,因此它的表现更像电感器,而不像次级绕组

This dual nature of the high voltage secondary is key to understanding this device and many other types of "American" low supply voltage gear 高压二次侧的这种双重性质是理解该装置和许多其他类型的“美国”低电压齿轮的关键

A separate auto-transformer and inductor could be used 可以使用单独的自耦变压器和电感器

and a circuit that is electrically the same can be constructed from a separate transformer and inductor 并且电气相同的电路可以由单独的变压器和电感器构成

but, for mass production it is far cheaper to use the magnetic circuit modification that combines the secondary of the transformer and current limiting inductor into one single winding 但是,对于大规模生产而言,使用将变压器次级和限流电感器组合成单个绕组的磁路修改要便宜得多

This is why you find it "difficult", because you can "see" the coils, the electrical parts through your measurements 这就是为什么你觉得它“难”,因为你可以通过测量“看到”线圈,电气部件


but you con not see the magnetic components, iron cores, leakage paths and air gaps by electrical measurements 但是,通过简单的电气测量,您无法看到磁性元件,铁芯,泄漏路径和气隙

The iron cores are not fully closed cores like a transformer has, they have extra iron paths around the secondary which makes it behave like an inductor and limits the output current 铁芯不像变压器那样是完全闭合的铁芯,它们在次级绕组周围有额外的铁路径,这使得它像电感一样工作并限制输出电流

These extra iron paths give the magnetic flux an alternative of the secondary winding is short circuited 如果次级绕组短路,这些额外的铁路径使磁通量成为流过的替代路径

Ordinary (low impedance) transformers do not have these alternative magnetic pathways 普通(低阻抗)变压器没有这些替代磁路

if you short circuit the secondary winding of an ordinary transformer it will get very hot and catch on fire 如果你将普通变压器的次级绕组短路,它会变得很热并着火

this is because there is no alternative path for the magnetic flux so the short circuit is "reflected" to the primary side 这是因为没有磁通量的替代路径,因此短路被“反射”到初级侧

the short circuited secondary blocks the magnetic flux by Lenz's Law...so the primary flux is blocked too 短路次级通过Lenz定律阻断磁通量......因此初级绕组磁通也被阻断

Blocking the magnetic flux through the primary winding is like removing the iron core, it reduces the impedance of the primary winding and causes it to draw a large current and get very hot.
阻断通过初级绕组的磁通量就像去除铁芯一样,它会降低初级绕组的阻抗并使其吸收大电流并变得非常热。

The discharge in a lamp like a fluorescent tube behaves like a "constant voltage short circuit" 像荧光灯一样的灯中的放电表现得像“恒压短路”

If you increase the current through such a discharge, the voltage across the discharge will DECREASE! 如果增加流过这种放电的电流,放电两端的电压将会降低!

It is the OPPOSITE of what a resistor does and is not intuitive 它与电阻器的作用相反,并不直观

This is why discharge lamp control gear contains series resistors (for DC) or series inductors (for AC) to control the discharge current and absorb the difference in voltage between the supply and the discharge 这就是为什么放电灯控制装置包含串联电阻(用于DC)或串联电感(用于AC)来控制放电电流并吸收电源和放电之间的电压差

If a transformer, (for high starting voltage) and inductor (to limit discharge current) are combined, it is usually done with a magnetic "leakage" path 如果将变压器(用于高启动电压)和电感器(用于限制放电电流)组合在一起,通常会使用磁性“泄漏”路径

I will make you a diagram showing you what this "leakage path" is...我会给你一张图片,告诉你这个“泄漏路径”是什么



This gear shown above is for cold-electrode tubes. 上面所示的这种齿轮用于冷电极管。

The same primary winding, middle, energizes two secondary windings either side 中间的相同初级绕组为两侧的两个次级绕组供电

There are magnetic leakage paths, four narrow air gaps around the primary 有磁漏路径......初级绕组周围有四个狭窄的气隙

Each secondary winding is independent from the other secondary winding 每个次级绕组独立于另一个次级绕组

Looking at just one secondary winding...it behaves as an inductor and a secondary
只看一个次级绕组......它表现为电感器和次级绕组

It is in series with a capacitor and a lamp....all three in series 它与一个电容器和一个灯串联。所有三个串联

The value of the secondary inductance and the capacitor are carefully chosen 已经仔细选择了次级电感和电容的值

to (series) resonate near 50Hz but not at 50Hz. 在50Hz附近产生共振,但不是在50Hz。

If it resonated at 50Hz the secondary winding will be short circuited despite the magnetic leakage paths and it would destroy the lamp and catch on fire 如果它在50Hz时产生共振,尽管有磁漏路径,次级绕组仍会短路,它会破坏灯泡并着火

So it deliberately is set to resonate near 50Hz, but not at 50Hz. This is what sets the lamp's discharge current 所以它故意设置为在50Hz附近产生共振,但不是在50Hz。 这是灯的放电电流

I suspect your "black box" is similar to this cold electrode lamp circuit of mine 我怀疑你的“黑匣子”类似于我的这个冷电极灯电路

My circuit drives two lamps from two secondaries with two series capacitors 我的电路从漏电变压器的每一端驱动一个串联灯,电容器,二次排列

Your circuit drives two hot electrode lamps in series as if they are a single longer lamp
您的电路将两个热电极灯串联驱动,就好像它们是一个更长的灯泡一样

So, if we mentally combine your two short lamps into a single long lamp 因此,如果我们在心理上,在我们的脑海中将您的两个短灯组合成一个长灯

is that "one lamp" in series with both the capacitor and the leakage secondary 是“单灯”,电容器和次级灯串相互串联

As in my gear above 如上面描述的齿轮

or is the "one lamp" in parallel with the capacitor and that parallel circuit in series with the inductor/secondary winding?
或者是与电容器并联的“一盏灯”和与电感器/次级绕组串联的并联电路?

Generally, at low frequencies, <1KHz, designers refrain from placing discharge lamps in parallel with capacitors. 通常,在低频<1KHz时,设计者不要将放电灯与电容器并联放置。

This is because, at these low frequencies the discharge almost completely extinguishes with each half cycle 通常,在低频<1KHz时,设计者不要将放电灯与电容器并联放置。

When the discharge re starts on the next half cycle, the capacitor can discharge into the lamp, damaging the electrodes 当放电在下一个半周期开始时,电容器可以放电到灯中,损坏电极

At much higher frequencies, 20-50KHz, this is not an issue as the discharge does not have time to fully extinguish before the next half cycle occurs 在更高的频率,20-50 KHz,这不是问题,因为在下一个半周期发生之前放电没有时间完全熄灭

So in CFL's capacitors are placed in series with the lamp with no electrode erosion issues
因此,在CFL中,电容器与灯串联放置,没有电极腐蚀问题

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Mar 10, 2019 at 01:18 AM Author: Globe Collector
Knowing all this, we continue making tests on the unit 知道了这一切,我们继续对该装置进行测试



In or minds we "collapse" the pairs of low voltage pre-heat leads into single nodes 在我们看来,我们将这对低压预热引线“折叠”成单个节点

We know it is a hot electrode lamp circuit with pre-heat windings, but we think of it as a cold-electrode lamp corcuit to make it more simple to think about 我们知道这是一个带有预热绕组的热电极灯电路,但我们认为它是一种冷电极灯电路,使其更容易思考

We remove the hot electrode parts of the circuit in our minds...我们在脑海中移除了电路的热电极部分......



Now the circuit looks more simple and less cluttered with wires 现在电路看起来更简单,并且不那么杂乱



We remove the capacitors before we start voltage testing 在开始电压测试之前,我们移除了两个电容器

Switch your multimeter to the AC Volts range 将万用表切换到AC Volts范围



So this is how we are thinking of the circuit 所以这就是我们对这个电路的想法

With both lamps and both capacitors removed 随着两个灯和两个电容器被删除

and an incandescent lamp in series with the supply 和一个与电源串联的白炽灯

Please wait a few days until I can upload more images! 请等几天,直到我可以上传更多图片!

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

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Mar 10, 2019 at 02:57 AM Author: Men of God
很感谢您耐心的解答我的问题!但是,不幸的是我把电容器一开始选错规格了,实际上电容器是4uF的,所以建议更改一下描述,以免不小心被误导后人,用30uF容量太大了,很可能会把灯管炸掉!

我不会英文,所以我用中文,请你们用翻译网站翻译我打的字!

I can't in English, so I in Chinese, please use the translation website to translate my words!

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Mar 10, 2019 at 04:31 AM Author: Globe Collector
Translation of the above text..

Thank you for your patience in answering my questions! However, unfortunately, I chose the wrong capacitor at the beginning. In fact, the capacitor is 4uF. Therefore, it is recommended to change the description so as not to be misled into future generations. The capacity of 30uF is too large, and it is likely to blow up the tube. Fall!



I can change reference to the 30uF in the text, but it is too difficult to alter in the images 我可以在文本中更改对30uF的引用,但是一旦上传它们就很难在图像中进行更改


But just leave an "errata" correction here 但是在这里留下“勘误”修正


EVERYBODY! The 30uF capacitor has way too low a capacitive reactance to function in this low powered, medium impedance circuit!!!

大家好!!! 在这种低功率,中等阻抗电路中,30uF电容具有太低的容抗,无法工作!!!

Yes, I thought something was "fishy" with that large capacitor! 是的,我认为那个大电容器的东西是“腥”的!

That sort of capacitor is normally found on induction motor start windings! 通常发现这种电容器与感应电动机启动绕组串联连接!

I will correct all unloaded images though...我会纠正所有未加载的图像,但......

It would be nowhere near resonance with this large value capacitor 使用这个大容量电容器,共振的可能性很小

I will upload more when LG will allow me....c20 hours from now 当LG允许我时,我会上传更多内容....从现在起c20小时

Do the translations into Mandarin make any sense?? 翻译成普通话是否有意义?

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Mar 10, 2019 at 04:41 AM Author: Men of God
Yes, I can understand it. It's an old Chinese saying--one false step can lead to eternal hatred. (一失足则成千古恨)It means that if you make a mistake in front of things, you will get all the following steps wrong. Fortunately, there is no big problem. I will redraw the circuit diagram

我不会英文,所以我用中文,请你们用翻译网站翻译我打的字!

I can't in English, so I in Chinese, please use the translation website to translate my words!

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Mar 10, 2019 at 04:58 AM Author: Globe Collector
Actually, No, it is not a big issue. 实际上,不,这不是一个大问题。

Trust in yourself and respect your own abilities 相信自己,尊重自己的能力

We have this "Old Australian saying" too...if you never make mistakes, you never learn! 我们也有这个“古老的澳大利亚谚语”......如果你从不犯错误,你就永远不会学习!

We have another one too..."If you think you know everything, then you learn nothing because you believe you know it all already"!! 我们还有另一个......“如果你认为你知道一切,那么你什么都不学,因为你相信你已经知道了一切”!!

School Teachers are often afflicted with this second one! 学校教师经常展示第二个!

See if you can find a reference to the "Dunning-Kruger Effect" on the internet...看看你是否能在互联网上找到“Dunning-Kruger效应”的参考资料......

I will get the Wilipaedia Page, but you probably won't be able to reach it from your end...我会得到Wilipaedia Page,但你可能无法从你的角度到达它...

Wiki达克效应

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BE%BE%E5%85%8B%E6%95%88%E5%BA%94

Manufactured articles should be made to be used, not made to be sold!

Fee, Fye, Fow, Fum, A dead man's eye and a parrot's BUM!

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