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A coated bulb

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Date added:Nov 10, 2007
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DaveMan
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Nov 10, 2007 at 02:13 AM Author: DaveMan
Dark sky apparently now has a problem with white light in general and they want to force HPS for all streetlighting. Basically they want to ban metal halide now. This is the google cache of the Dark Sky article which was a PDF file. I was pretty angry when I read it and apparently they don't even know the first thing about metal halide.

They are leaving out a few things. This is the first article that tells it like it is from the neutral side, written by James Madison University. Two key things are mentioned here. One, most people prefer metal halide and white light. Two and perhaps more importantly, HPS may be the most efficient in terms of raw lumens BUT it takes four times as many lumens from a HPS bulb to equal the same amount of visibility from a metal halide or mercury vapor bulb due to the fact that the human eye is more sensitive to green light than red light since green is in the middle of the visibility spectrum and red is at the low end. Also take a note of this study conducted by Perdue University Once again a google cache was used since the article was in PDF format. We have mentioned high pressure sodium bulbs being tree killers here on the forum before but we never showed the evidence until now and you can't argue with scientific evidence. Dark sky's article provided no scientific evidence for some of the assumptions about metal halide bulbs. They used to praise metal halide for its efficiency and use it to help them convince the government to obliterate mercury vapor lights. Now that they've done it, they turned their back on metal halide too. They don't like white light. However, I have discovered on my road trip with Frog that between mercury lit areas and HPS areas we have seen, sky glow from HPS was actually a lot worse. Not only that but either way you will get a light cloud over the city from the street lighting and given the choice between a white cloud and an orange cloud I still prefer the white cloud. At least it looks clean. The orange cloud looks like floating nuclear waste. I like looking at stars as much as anybody but these people are misguided and will stop at nothing. I once saw a T shirt that said "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

Why I put this in a members only photo is simple. We need to rally everyone and spread the word around. If you are a member of a yahoo group I strongly urge you to post all this there. Those of you who feel like it should write lighting designers and write GE. Jace told me there was a push to force LPS streetlighting for all street lights in the 70's but GE was powerful enough to stop it. We need to make sure that DS doesn't kill off white light for good. For that matter, anyone brave enough to start petitions for the government to reallow mercury vapor lights, let me know. I'll back it. Spread the word. We can't let them win this time. White light needs to stay. I am eager for all of your thoughts so feel free to post them as comments to this pic. Peace.

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Nov 10, 2007 at 03:40 AM Author: Silverliner
I used to post on the Dark Sky forums in the past. I can tell you guys that many of the dark sky members have a negative attitude. I was criticilized for bringing up the point that the full cutoff design is the answer to the skyglow problem, not the mercury vapor lamp. I was thrown in the face with comments like "everyone will buy the cheapest item that is inefficient", etc. Practically most were objecting against me.

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Nov 10, 2007 at 06:49 AM Author: DaveMan
That's how these people are. Many people if they are told something enough times will not only believe it, but they will fall into a hole in which they are closed off to anything and hold out a strong resentment towards anything that is different and the DS people are among them

To bring another thing out in favor of the mercury vapor bulb Here is a short article from the USDA, yes the government branch during a 1999 debate over HPS versus mercury vapor. There are many aspects in favor of mercury vapor bulbs in here. If this was taken into account, we might actually have MV back or it would have never disappeared to begin with

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Nov 10, 2007 at 09:01 AM Author:
Yes, I think the information right here, the white paper, and others should be spread out to other lighting pages of all kinds that supports MH and possible MV.....it would be nice if anyone here could volunteer to help out, in matter of fact I am impressed with Dave here! Good Job.....you seem to have the most effort into this!
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Nov 11, 2007 at 01:35 AM Author: DaveMan
Just to further bump this up, the comments section of this bulb is where we are posting all stuff on the dark sky going crazy topic. I want to rally everyone and stop them before its too late. We missed the boat on mercury vapor, but we're not letting them take this one too. Post all of the links i put up in ALL yahoo groups you are part of. Write letters to the right people. I'm not sure who to write to myself so if anyone has ideas PM me and let me know. We know what they are up to before they did anything and now its time for decisive action. Thanks.

Dave

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Nov 11, 2007 at 02:28 AM Author: Silverliner
Dave and everybody, tonite I checked out the lighting at a local city owned tennis court. They are lit by many many floodlights using 1000w /DX mercury vapor lamps. They literally make the courts look like daylight at night. Yet they hardly produce skyglow compared to the MH lighting at a ball park next door. I will try to take good pictures and post here to compare the sky glow from mercury vs MH lighting.

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Nov 11, 2007 at 10:50 AM Author:
Great leadership Daveman, and Dave the Silverliner, go for it, maybe save mercs somehow.......athough they in a way need lots of servicing as they dim out but a lot safer than a blown MH in a dark court where crime can come, but playing tennis would be hard to have fun under HPS and probably will drive people who loves to play tennis away to start doing drugs cuz cycling HPS drove them crazy, so why increase crime???
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Nov 11, 2007 at 11:46 AM Author: DaveMan
Yet another application where HPS is bad, tennis courts, LOL. You wont be able to see the green of the ball under the orange light so everything will look black. The tennis court in my area used to have T12 fluorescent fixtures before switching to MH. Again I'l still looking for articles in favor of MH and MV that show the folly of HPS. More in a few.

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Nov 11, 2007 at 12:07 PM Author: Silverliner
Hey, I do know some ballparks lit in HPS. Simi Valley has some, including one not far from where I live, built in '84. The light quality is horrible. Yeah the 80s was truly a HPS decade, even gyms got HPS. Ewwww.

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Nov 11, 2007 at 12:14 PM Author:
Trust me I know about the HPS lit gyms my old elementary school had them, that was a while ago before I knew they were HPS and it scared me when one cycled




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Nov 11, 2007 at 12:38 PM Author:
is this a coated HPS lamp say LU150/100 (150w HPS with 100v arc) or above

All the Best

Colin
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Nov 11, 2007 at 12:40 PM Author: DaveMan
My old middleschool had an HPS lit gym. Terrible terrible color and what not. I hope they put MH in there. Yes they did cycle quite a bit from what I remember.

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Nov 11, 2007 at 01:59 PM Author: sparkie
HPS is bad for plants! I have studied biology and part of this included the daily cycles of plants (circadian rhythms is the technical term). I won't go into detail as it is complicated, but basically the plants tell which time of year it is based on the ratio of red and far red light, and use this to determine when to drop leaves/ grow new leaves etc. The huge quantities of both R/FR produced by HPS (and not by MV MH or even LPS) confuse the plants and mess up their cycle.

Anyway, the lighting authorities in my area certainly don't believe the sort of rubbish that people like DS spew out. They have recently replaced the lighting at a major roundabout - out with HPS, in with full cutoff MH and guess what - visibility is much better and skyglow is down!




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Nov 11, 2007 at 02:05 PM Author:
Colin, no this is just a MV....but we are talking about dark sky mostly...and trying to prevent from dark sky from banning MH lamps, the ones in USA wants ALL HPS in USA and not even have MH indoors! This is why we need help to take action to stop from banning MH, even if it takes to tell all the other groups and stuff...but don't mention the LG...in other groups, just the dark sky webpage that Dave linked above.....they made the page......against MH, so if we have no MV or MH, then where's the white source, we need them for stadiums, deaf people need them to see others read lips or sign since we can't hear someone call out from far distance and I can not read people under HPS, and here's another thing, how is witness gonna accurately describe a criminal when they find them under HPS, its hard to tell colors. Also cycling HPS makes people think they are psychic! This is why we need to prevent this from happening!




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Nov 11, 2007 at 02:10 PM Author:
Yes, Jace the other day I saw a cycling HPS outside of a store and my mom thought I shut it off
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Nov 11, 2007 at 03:51 PM Author: Silverliner
Good news for you all, HPS is now starting to be considered outdated technology, a crude way to save energy, orginally invented in the sixties and seventies. HPS took off only because of the '73 and '79 energy crisis. Thanks to this, we're now stuck with a crude technology seen as a quick fix to reduce the amount of watts but doesn't help visibility. I can't see very well under HPS, a parking lot with said lamps look pretty hazy when you look far.

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Nov 11, 2007 at 04:21 PM Author:
Yes Dave Silverliner, but here's an issue, DS wants and likes HPS, so what about this issue??? This is the problem, they want HPS, and claims they will make greener Earth, but true fact is they hurt trees, and they make them look good and don't add any negatives about HPS, and only says all negatives about MV and MH.....while we do tell some positives about HPS and positives about MH and MV, but also puts negative to all said lamps...such as MH short life, HPS bad color, hard to see, actually dangerous for crime unless you used 1000 watts, and MV dims out...but MV lasts longest of all....MH and HPS are unusable when dead (cycling will also drive people madly crazy and shoot them even more useless..) While MV are dim when really old but at least lights up instead of totally black and dark! Also....MV would mean a lot less spill of mercury because they last longer and have less mercury than MH....however CMH would do great for todays lights for safety and color, and slightly lasts longer than MH and also has very little mercury like HPS...but dark sky won't claim that, in their white paper says CMH are MH with ceramic coating and has same amount of mercury as MH....then......ask those who invented CMH and companies who make them, would say Dark Sky is wrong.....I'm not hating dark sky actually, just bothered on how they handle it and can improve with MORE truth instead of being negative and mix the truth
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Nov 12, 2007 at 01:15 AM Author: DaveMan
Here is a google cache of another document showing problems with HPS, namely its effect on perhiphreal vision and I have noticed this myself. Cycling isnt mentioned here but it is well known that it does inhibit visibility.

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Nov 12, 2007 at 02:09 AM Author: Silverliner
Cool link, I'll read more of it later when I have more online time. By the way, Philips now makes cool white CMH lamps that last 24,000 hours in the 70-250 watt line with mogul bases. That's an ideal life hour rating for street lighting, so it may mean the HPS's days are numbered.

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Nov 12, 2007 at 07:08 AM Author:
Right Dave, but look at the DS white paper that said Coating MH with a "ceramic" coating to "change" the color is only partially effective; but further reduces it's efficiency. Ceramics are better than "quartz" MH, but do not offset the negatives and not many knows what a CMH is, even above is a false information too...because the negatives ARE offset, like a LOT less mercury, about as much as a HPS....Also they want ya use a 2300K fluorescent light if white source was needed...but hey that won't do good in sports, also 2300K is one of the worst color fluorescent, they sure trying to fool people and make other STUCK with 2300K colors like we are kinda now stuck with HPS!
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Nov 12, 2007 at 01:40 PM Author: DaveMan
All true and take a look at the photos here. First, on the map, you may notice that the worst area is New York which is HPS. Also take a look at teh photos from Dark Sky at the bottom of the page. These shots of the University of Arizona campus are probably what DS used to convince the government that mercury vapor lights were inefficient but you will notice a few things. One, the colors are not very realistic. Two, the dark ground areas on the mercury vapor photo had to have been put there because there is no way the ground would look like that under MV lighting. Furthermore, the LPS photo looks like it was doctored as well as its colors aren't very realistic either. It looks to me like the "burn" tool from photoshop was used to darken the ground on the MV fixture and the brightness/contrast settings were modified on both pictures which accounts for the unreaslistic colors. Again All of this needs to be spread around. All of your help is appreciated.

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Nov 12, 2007 at 02:43 PM Author:
Yes......be sure to call it DS really DSA is wrong, I was the one who called it and I mistaken it...its actually "I-D-A" but ill rather call it DS........

Is anyone in this page volunteering to help? Please let us know in here, or in email of either Dave or me.....let us know if you plan to help...so we can get together on the internet, maybe chat or whatever......Just think wanna be in a world that looks like we are on fire? Or wanna be in nice colorful world?
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Nov 12, 2007 at 04:30 PM Author: DaveMan
Yes please PM me for my email address or other info or questions. We need to start writing letters to people who can help and we should proofread each others draft letters if anyone has any.

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Nov 12, 2007 at 08:55 PM Author: Silverliner
I meant to add more details. Another thing about mercury vapor lamps the DrKsKy people overlooked is the fact that mercury lamps are somewhat deficient in the blue portion of the spectrum compared to yellow and green where they are the strongest in. The red is the smallest portion of the spectrum though, and that is why mercury lamps do not kill plants nor trees. Plants respond to the red end of the spectrum like it is daylight, and streets that are brightly lit with HPS lamps subject the plants to 24 hour daylight, literally. MH lamps are higher in the reds and especially blue, which scatters more in the air and literally causes lots more light pollution and glare. MH lamps are less likely to kill trees and also improve night visibility where there is no fog, than HPS, however. Yes, clear mercury appears blue to the eye, but in reality the light is made of a mix of purple, green, yellow, with tiny bits of blue and red. Tomorrow or so I will post pics of light pollution caused by MH lighting and compare to mercury.

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Nov 13, 2007 at 07:02 PM Author:
Yes, but so far nobody is willing to help......I hope this will be helped, I would at least like even ceramic Metal halide or even fluorecent lights or even incandescent to be standard streetlighting, not HPS at all!
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Nov 13, 2007 at 08:44 PM Author: DaveMan
I agree 100%

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Nov 13, 2007 at 11:10 PM Author: arcblue
Don't hate, guys, HPS has its uses, just not everywhere. As for growing, it's great for tomatoes and other flowering plants. I have a tea rose bush growing directly under the HPS wall pack by my garage and it always blooms like crazy. Not sure if the HPS lamp has anything to do with it or not, but it's certainly not killing the plant. I think HPS lamps look great for accent & architectual lighting when the golden color is part of the design. For gymnasium & swimming pool lighting - no way!

Mercury lamps as we know and love them are going away - nothing we can do about it except hoard them and use them at our own residences. Yeah, I still like mercury best - especially the clear type - for general roadway lighting, but at least people are starting to realize that "white" light is more useful for roadway lighting than HPS in most cases.

I'm lampin...





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Nov 13, 2007 at 11:14 PM Author:
This is not about MV going away, Dark sky wants to BAN METAL HALIDE and have NO white source...look at the dark sky white paper!
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Nov 13, 2007 at 11:15 PM Author: DaveMan
They still have em in Canada and Europe so don't be too sure. Besides, I still think there is hope and the least we can do is try. They always say silence is the worst thing one can do. And yes, HPS is known to be used as a grow light for some plants, however, in the case of trees its known to cause problems.

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Nov 13, 2007 at 11:20 PM Author: J-Frog
Yeah these DSA guys are going crazy now, wanting to ban all white light!

Jeremiah The Bullfrog





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Nov 15, 2007 at 12:16 AM Author:
That's right, Silence is the worst thing one can do!



yes HPS is known to grow plants, but not to give them 24/7 "sunlight" which means......sun during day, and the HPS during night which is kinda like having all day sun, plants and tree need a day and dark cycle...



I do have hope also..........but i hope people are aware of what goes on....
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Nov 15, 2007 at 08:39 PM Author: FGS
Guys check this out. What do you think?

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

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Nov 15, 2007 at 11:59 PM Author: DaveMan
@ FGS. Pretty good and well written. Maybe one or two spelling errors but still great. If you've got sources to site, that always makes it look more professional too.

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Nov 16, 2007 at 06:48 AM Author: FGS
Thanks.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Nov 19, 2007 at 10:29 AM Author:
Update: DS may have gotten confused about the Ceramic part...(repeating what they said)

"Coating MH with a "ceramic" coating to "change" the color is only partially effective; but further reduces it's efficiency. Ceramics are better than "quartz" MH, but do not offset the negatives"

Now they say Ceramic coated MH has no quartz arc tube.....they are wrong, there are coated quartz MH that has quartz arc tube......but there are MH called ceramic MH which is CMH are not those that are coated, there are clear ones, and they have less mercury....one reason why I think DS are very confused, which obvious they know nothing....the link follows....from 1953's

here's the link where DS may have gotten confused with the word "Ceramic"
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Nov 22, 2007 at 07:31 PM Author: DaveMan
Back again just checking up to see if we have anymore progress in saving white light. Note that we will make this thread publicly viewable so we can get more help.

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Nov 22, 2007 at 07:35 PM Author:
Another reason not to have HPS is because I always see lamps cycle for a year or more unless in a residential area....so HPS are really gonna eat up your electricity MORE because cycling ones eat up power while dead MH and MV won't swallow your power.....that's why it should NOT be used as streetlighting, plus cycling HPS damages fixtures hence electric companies loses money faster for new fixtures.....something electric companies wouldn't want to do.....and would hike your bill rates so they can pay for the utilities needed I believe
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Nov 22, 2007 at 07:39 PM Author: FGS
Yep. The acorn fixture in front of my house cycled, I reported and they changed one week after. Too bad they changed the lamp while I was at school. I wanted that HPS. Looked to be philips cuz I saw a faint green tip through the reflactor. Now I think there is a Sylvania ECO.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

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Nov 23, 2007 at 06:45 AM Author: Semi-Comma
I just read the first link that DaveMan posted.. and I'm seriously wondering.. where in the hell did they find an HPS lamp that lasts 24,000 hours? Yeah maybe the specs say that. But that's only if you operate the lamp in a climate controlled room. Exactly 71.5697 degrees F (~22 deg C), 32.5471% humidity, and using a regulated power supply to drive the ballast that keeps the power within 0.0001 volts of the specified input. You should probably put on a white lab coat before entering that room as well. Carrying a clipboard wouldn't hurt.

To beat the ever so dead horse... HPS is horrid, ugly and useless on the street. The only place I like to see it is indoors, as it is out of context and rather surreal. On the street, I'd rather MV, incandescent, gaslight, flaming sticks, candles, fireflies, my hair, ANYTHING BUT HPS!

I really wish the IDA would just shut up. That'd be spifftacular. Ah well.. the most ignorant are the most heard. That's how it's been since I can remember.
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Nov 23, 2007 at 09:30 AM Author: FGS
Welcome back Semi-Comma. Yeah HPS should be banned from streetlights. I hope GE step up again as they did in the 70s with the LPS as streetlights.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Nov 23, 2007 at 01:03 PM Author:
I believe HPS should not be hated, well for street lighting uses only it is acceptable, but HPS does have it's uses.




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:08 AM Author:
I don't think they are good on streetlighting, but good for other things as garden and building decorating, but not for streetlighting...




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:12 AM Author:
Oops I should have worded what I said better. Yes indeed HPS is not good for streetlighting but liken you say it has other uses like you mentioned.




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:14 AM Author:
Why is HPS not good for streetlighting? Glare? blame the luminaire. Color? A saturated orange color is actually good for visual acuity, especially during bad weather.




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:19 AM Author:
One reason, nobody reports cycling lamps, and it makes people think they are psychics, plus color makes it hard for people to report crime to identify people such as color of shirt, hair and sorts, Dark sky wanna have all places, even if it was playground to be lit with HPS, no white lights anywhere outside!!!!!

HPS are always cycling around here and they only last 2 years. I probably will like HPS better if they were the deluxe color AND coated! But still, I'll like white lighting in residential areas and in cities and sporting and playground and parking lots but HPS only for highways and main roads but smaller roads should have whiter lights.

It is hard for me as a deaf person to talk to people under HPS because I can not see their lips well, imagine me talking to a police under HPS if I was stopped.......




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:19 AM Author:
Well, yes it can be good when the glare is controlled by the refractors I suppose. There's lots of post tops in the UK, and some of then run HPS, but the problem is, the refractors tend to throw a lot of light everywhere. There are also lanterns on HPS without decent refractors which cause a lot of glare, so they could be a good streetlight source.




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:22 AM Author:
Good streetight source or bad?




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:27 AM Author:
If you like Deluxe HPS and coated lamps, then you should move to Europe What I mean to say is that you cannot blame all lighting problems of the world on HPS - think of people's choice in the use/design of luminaires and of lamps (beside the DS, please)....

As for cycling, this problem is solved in unsaturated lamps but utility companies have to make the effort of using them, and moreover if they don't perform any group replacement and only rely on people calling them for spotting dead lamps, then you are bound to experience difficulties with dead lamps, cycling or not.

And please, stop with this DS conspiracy - thay are not in the government and this is not tomorrow you'll see MH killed off (and no, MH do not contain more mercury than mercury lamps - they actually have a lot less hg content per lumen than mercury lamps). Especially as MH lamps with 120 lm/W are being develloped or are already introduced in the market (Cosmowhite)




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Nov 24, 2007 at 10:27 AM Author:
Ooh, hard to choose really, yes if it can be controlled but no when it is all glary. I'm slightly leaning to the bad source. The UK has a lot more HPS in England, and I've seen sattellite maps of England and you can see lots of England are bathed in yellow glow from HPS. Scotland on the other words and Wales has less skyglow despite having HPS and LPS as light sources as well, I think these two countries has it well controlled.

I might be getting myself confused over this.
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Nov 24, 2007 at 11:35 AM Author: Silverliner
Oh actually the sodium scandium lamps have slightly more mercury than mercury vapor lamps. The CMH lamps have far less mercury.

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Nov 24, 2007 at 12:43 PM Author:
It depends if you compare power or lumen, but at equal power a few lamps have indeed more mercury, but their average lumen output is higher, so MH lamps have in general a much lower mg Hg / lm value than mercury lamps. If we take the data given by Philips (mean value given for the lumen output) we have for DX mercury lamps and standard probe-start MH lamps:

175W MV: 26 mg / 7.6 klm = 3.4 mg/klm MH: 28 mg / 9.26 klm = 3.0 mg/klm

250W MV: 45 mg / 10.7 klm = 4.2 mg/klm MH: 36 mg / 13.5 klm = 2.7 mg/klm

400W MV: 66 mg / 19.1 klm = 3.4 mg/klm MH: 65 mg / 26.5 klm = 2.4 mg/klm

1000WMV: 178 mg / 47.5 klm = 3.7 mg/klm MH: 210 mg / 78 klm = 2.7 mg/klm

Thus for a given installation with a given total lumen output required for the illumination, not only there will be a lower total amount of mercury in the intallation if MH lamps are used, the total power consumption will be lower as well (due to the higher lumen efficacy of MH lamps) so will be the amount of mercury thrown out of your coal-fired powerplants.

As an example, if we have a lighting installation that requires 2000 klm (parking lot, stretch of road), you'll need 75 MH lamps of 400W or 105 Mercury lamps of same power (in fact more are needed due to the lower optical efficiency of luminaires with a diffuse lamp). The total amount of mercury present in all lamps is 4.9 g in the MH installation versus 6.9 g in the mercury installation, and there is an energy saving of more than 25% with the MH installation, all provided with a bonus: a CRI raised by 20 points.

There is still the issue of lifetime that is a problem for probe-start MH lamps (except for the 400W model that compares to the MV equivalent), that's why it further makes sense to move to pulse-start QMH (or CMH) that both provide a better efficacy, maintenance and life expectancy.

As a side note, the mg/klm value of HPS lamps is even lower than that of MH lamps.




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Nov 24, 2007 at 04:10 PM Author:
Max, please note what DS said wrong about "ceramic" MH.........
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Nov 25, 2007 at 06:38 AM Author: aRvO
I've heard that the production of MV lamps will be phased out by 2011 in Europe. By then they shouldn't get the "CE" label anymore. Is that right?

If so, I should start to stock up some more MV lamps.




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Nov 25, 2007 at 09:07 AM Author:
I think DS should lose their funding for what they did, now they want to make things worse by going after metal halide, now that's ridiculous. Who wants to live in a world where everything is HPS? Not me.

We all need to make some kind of petition. We can't allow a bunch of narrow minded people to get their way.
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Nov 26, 2007 at 01:19 AM Author: DaveMan
To all, I am happy we have more activity on this. White HID lighting is valuable and needs to stick around. We use it at football stadiums and in movie spotlights for one, for two is much more pleasing to the eyes. I agree. I don't think I'd want to live in an all HPS world. Besides, whether you like HPS or don't like it, I feel that the mixture of light sources makes things more interesting. MV is good for landscaping as not only do trees not see it but it makes trees look even more green and full of life as it does with grass not to mention if you are filming a black and white movie, it gives you the best color contrast. MH is good for walkway areas and entrances to buildings where people dwell more often as you get the best color rendering with it. As much as I dislike the color and overall effects of HPS, I will admit it has some uses, such as a grow light for plants. Plants absorb red light and reflect green. Also HPS kinda works for areas where it is foggy often. Plus variety better in that you can choose a color for the application.

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Nov 27, 2007 at 04:27 PM Author:
I am talking to a dark sky member in email, we met in the yahoo group. The person seems nice and have expressed himself about this situation, and I have understood his feelings. According to this guy, he has told me that 10 years ago there were some great spots to view the milky way (I remember going to Vermont myself personally and yes it was really beautiful!) and he told me that the great spots have had increased some lighting that there are less stars. Now we all would like what we would like to have. They the dark sky also has the right to have what they like. This is why I was thinking and talked in few posts in the lighting groups in Yahoo. This Dark Sky member wishes there were areas where the complete darkness would stay dark and that there are places that will stay dark and Dark Sky friendly, that did get me to thinking, but I also told him my feelings and gave some ideas of lighting and more. He also emailed me personally which will be between me and him.




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Nov 27, 2007 at 05:05 PM Author:
Well don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that high pressure sodium should be banned, in fact none of those three light sources should be banned, HPS, MH, MV. All light sources have their fair share of flaws and everyone has their own preferences when it comes to lighting. I respect that, but I do not condone working with the government to ban mercury vapor etc. That organization did the wrong thing by doing that. That's not fair to people who like those particular lights just like it wouldn't be fair to people if high pressure sodium was banned.
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Dec 02, 2007 at 01:03 AM Author: Semi-Comma
I would like to state for the record that I don't believe that any light source should be "banned" or even standardized. Every source should be available and there shouldn't be a set standard. I simply dislike HPS and find it rather odd that the IDA prefers them over mercury vapor or metal halide. Now, I don't believe that MV or MH should be the standard any more than I believe HPS should be. The fact that these people aren't even looking at facts is what gets me steamed. Yes HPS is more efficient than MV and MH on a technical standpoint... and is more useful in foggy, or otherwise low visibility weather. But in normal weather, every single thing looks relatively the same color, and though the coverage is good, it's not very effective. It's especially annoying when your eyes have adjusted to the orangish HPS lights on the road and someone with HID headlights who doesn't know how to work their high-low switch is headed right at you. The same situation under MH or MV, to me, isn't as bad. Outside of that situation, IMO, it's simply easier to see under even very dim MH or MV lights. But I don't believe that opinions like that should effect what kind of lights cities and states choose. And the IDA has never once expressed facts. Ok maybe once, they did, at some point, say that MV is bluish-white. I guess that's not an opinion. But to say that it pollutes more than HPS? That's an opinion, and a falsely guided one at that. I don't know if any of you are aware of it, but if the IDA had their way, there'd be NO lights on the streets. Only traffic signals, headlights, and brakelights. Maybe a lighted sign for those who paid the Lighted Sign Tax that would be established if the IDA did, in fact, have their way.

In short, I don't hate any light source, no matter how ugly. I just dislike those who hate light (in general) and try to tamper with things they refuse to even attempt to understand.



--- edited to add ---

And also for the record, as I said, I don't hate any light source... that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to find certain sources simply annoying.

Honestly, if I was in charge of lighting a city, every resident would be mailed a questionnaire to be sent back, or if that would be way too complex (and it probably would) I'd hold a kind of "lighting election." There would be pictures of an area lit by each light source, INCLUDING incandescent and maybe even gaslight if I felt like really going all out. I would also list, below/beside the picture, the efficiency/efficacy, average life of lamps/equipment, equipment costs, and lamp costs for each source, as well as provide a spectra chart for each source. And there'd be a card with some circles to be filled in, most likely a 1-to-5 (1 being hate, 5 being love) selection for each source. The one with the highest average rating would be the one I'd choose.

Democracy in lighting.
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Dec 02, 2007 at 08:58 AM Author: FGS
@Semi-Comma - That's one cool idea!

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

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Dec 02, 2007 at 08:13 PM Author: J-Frog
Yes I agree a very good idea for lighting! Also if I were in charge id only listen to facts and not ban some lighting tech based on opinion.

Jeremiah The Bullfrog

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Dec 02, 2007 at 10:41 PM Author: DaveMan
Semi Comma. I like your idea. And yes I think we should keep all 3 light sources around which means keeping MH here and maybe saving MV if possible. And while I dislike the color of HPS as well as the HID headlight contrast problem Semi Comma mentioned. Good to see this is still active.

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Dec 03, 2007 at 06:44 AM Author:
This well written Semi-Comma message should go to the Streetlight-I yahoo group, there's a darksky member who read our posts in the yahoo group and feels that we are in the same page. Semi-Comma, that was the best well written you have ever done so far of what I've seen!
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Dec 05, 2007 at 02:50 AM Author: DaveMan
Its good to know that some of the dark sky people are on our side. I guess nothing is concrete as it seems. Also good that we are making progress. I'm mulling through my final exams and papers this coming week. Draft letters are soon to come.

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Dec 11, 2007 at 09:19 AM Author:
I think people should be allowed to make their own decision when it comes to lighting, people have to have their own minds. The government shouldn't have any say so about what light sources I can and can't use. I'm glad to hear that everyone on this website is making an effort to fight these unfair laws. Honestly, if more people came up with these great ideas to fight this EPact law two years earlier before it got passed, I think something could of been done to stop it. Just my opinion. Anyway, keep up the good work.



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Dec 18, 2007 at 09:21 PM Author: FGS
I got another one. This one describes a merc lamp.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Dec 19, 2007 at 06:26 AM Author:
Nice, post it to other groups........
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Dec 19, 2007 at 08:23 AM Author: FGS
Which one? I haven't joined the other groups.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Dec 20, 2007 at 08:28 AM Author:
There are MANY electrical and lighting groups around! But not galleries though, but spreading out will help

The other groups which are more forums are in the yahoo groups which some of the members in this page goes to including me....and don't forget DP's group and I think Colin has a group?? not sure




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Dec 20, 2007 at 08:31 AM Author:
Yes indeed I have a group, it's next to death at the moment and Colin indeed has his own then there's a few street lighting groups.
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Jan 07, 2008 at 11:26 PM Author: DaveMan
Well it's now 2008. As many of us as possible should try to acquire MV fixtures when we can, and as far as the MH issue of that going too, just coming back to see how much progress we have made and how far the literature has spread. Template letters to possible people to write to may be written soon. Any info or activity is helpful!

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Jan 08, 2008 at 12:12 AM Author: Silverliner
Put probe start MH ballasts on the endangered list, the US government is banning such ballasts from fixtures that operate lamps vertically. Basically, they require pulse start to have an 88% minimum efficiency, and probe start ballasts to have a 92% minimum efficiency. Stock up now!

May all the great lighting technologies have their place in history.

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Jan 08, 2008 at 09:51 AM Author: FGS
They oughta use the money to research and develop ways to create more renewable energy instead of using them to enforce bans of some lamps or ballasts.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Jan 08, 2008 at 12:49 PM Author:
I'm with you on that. It would of been the best solution for the energy crisis rather than doing something dumb like this, banning lights. Just the word ban by itself sounds ignorant.
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Jan 09, 2008 at 08:51 PM Author: DaveMan
I agree with the two gentlemen who posted just above me! Anyways, since confusion with green LED traffic lights is one reason DSA used to convince the govt to scrap MV lights, here is a more accurate representation: This is the pic DSA doesn't want you to see.

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Jan 10, 2008 at 07:44 AM Author: FGS
I have a question that have been bugging me for a long time. If they decide to ban merc lamps. Will this suffer the same fate as the lamps we like? Why not design a ballast that can be used to run the burner from that lamp and design a screw in lamp using the short-arc MV burner? What is the CRI of those UHPMV lamps?

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Jan 10, 2008 at 04:55 PM Author:
Yeah those Dark Sky people are out of line, so they used the led argument to get mercury vapor lights banned? Unreal, those people lie badly, one of them even said that their organization didn't have anything to do with getting mercury vapor lights eliminated and they only got banned because they contain mercury in them, but that's not the real reason they got banned, it's all because of their efficiency or whatever. Anybody who knows anything about DSA knows that they're solely responsible for the ban and all these laws that are being passed. It's funny how they say their sensible, hmm let's see, trying to get lights banned because of their complete lack of knowledge about lighting . Oh yeah that's really sensible huh.

Interesting
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Jan 10, 2008 at 07:01 PM Author: FGS
Looking over the all white lamp ban. It remembered me of a horrible nightmare I had a long time ago. Well before I learn anything about lighting. It was a indoor playground lit up by white light High-bays (Likely MVs). (Playground? Yes it goes that far as 12 years ago!) We were having fun, but when the lights started shifting to orange (Well y'all know what lamps they were ) everybody started panicking and trying to get out of the building into the white sunlight. Back then I had no idea what was happening except it was sure scary for an 8 year old kid. Looking back I understood what it meant. Crazy dream ain't it guys?

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Jan 10, 2008 at 08:11 PM Author:
Who would want to see the Pittsburgh Steelers play under high pressure sodium lights? Not me.

High pressure sodium isn't meant for sports gymnasiums or football fields or tennis courts. They rely on white light so it's easier to see at night. I hope that white light ban can be stopped because this is getting way out of hand. Enough's enough.
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Jan 10, 2008 at 08:52 PM Author: Silverliner
I have seen ballparks lit with HPS. Pretty dingy and awful I gotta say!

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Jan 10, 2008 at 08:53 PM Author: FGS
Oh, no! It already started!

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

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Jan 18, 2008 at 07:34 PM Author: DaveMan
@FGS: That may be. However, if we take action now we just might be able to stop it.

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Jan 18, 2008 at 09:58 PM Author:
Yeah I agree, it's time to take action now before it's too late. A few years ago when Dark Sky was trying to get mercury vapor banned, they succeeded because no one stood up and fought it.

Now it's too late, the mercury vapor era ended because no one stood up against the ban. Not even GE stood up to the plate. I encourage everybody to fight for what's right.

Something could be done now to hopefully stop metal halide from being Dark Sky's next victim.
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Jan 19, 2008 at 11:41 PM Author: arcblue
I don't think Dark Sky is the "enemy," and streetlighting, and other installations using HPS have already been shifting to white light - CMH, induction and CFL technologies. I think HPS, like LPS, will be used less and less over time. The lamp "banning" results from policy-makers who only look at the numbers - lumen output and electric usage - and nothing more. It's not just lighting - anyone who makes decisions based on numbers alone is at risk for making a bad decision!

I found a good article about banning incandescents and some of the problems with the CFL's used to replace them. It is one of the best articles I've read. He goes into a lot of detail about power factor which is something not to be taken lightly nowadays, considering most discharge-type light fixture have a power factor of 0.6 or worse - often much worse for cheap HID fixtures. Interestingly, my 175w mercury NEMA fixture uses LESS over energy than the 150w HPS NEMA (as measured by my Kill-A-Watt) and with the power factor, the consumption in VA is MUCH higher with the HPS fixture and its poor power factor. Our electricity bills only charge for the actual wattage used but in reality, we are ALL paying for fixture with poor power factors.

BTW, I sometimes have strange HPS "cravings" where I actually love to work or play under HPS light. Maybe that's why I have so many HPS fixtures. Other days though - I can't stand it.

And another odd observation: I have an indoor palm tree backlit at night with an LPS fixture. It is the healthiest, happiest, best looking one - a second palm tree of the exact same type, purchased at the same time, is in an adjacent room lit by halogen light, and it is thin and unhappy-looking. Of course there are a lot of factors that could affect the plants (daylight, temperature, soil and water) and although it makes no sense, I think the palm really likes the LPS light! I have a rose bush that for 10 years has lived under my outdoor dusk-to-dawn HPS wall pack and it produces more flowers than any other bush in my yard. So....sodium light certainly doesn't KILL plants, in my experience it has even helped them, it seems.

I'm lampin...

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Jan 22, 2008 at 11:01 AM Author: don93s
I think what needs to be clearified is that HPS light is actually good enhancement for indoor plant growth when used with metal halide. The issue is the disruption of the dark cycle that plants need; and strong red (HPS) or blue sources (MH) can disprupt these cycles. There is debate as to what outdoor light levels are actually harmful at night and depends on the types of plants.
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Jan 27, 2008 at 02:52 AM Author: DaveMan
I second what Don says. Especially for plants like trees in which they need the dormancy cycle and 24 hour sunlight is really bad. The green spectrum of clear MV has its benefit in that trees can't even see it, so they get their rest. The bonus is that it also makes the trees look extra green and full of life rather than making them look brown and dried up.

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Jan 29, 2008 at 10:35 AM Author: jason_m
I would like to start a conference line. Since Voip is the wave of the future... There are tons a free conference servers that you dial then enter conference number. But the easiest would be Sipphone' system, which is 1222(any_number)@proxy01.sipphone.com, like we could use 122254448464. "54448464" spells "lighting" on a phone keypad.




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Jan 29, 2008 at 11:37 AM Author:
We all won't be able to do that, so it may not totally work out....some of reasons are not all people have VOIP, another problem is some of the members in this LG are deaf including me.....

But we kinda already have a conference line...some of the members in this page have a chat room in AIM or sometimes Yahoo or MSN, we plan this Daveman above is one of them who uses the chat room along with others and me. We always make different name rooms though.....
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Jan 29, 2008 at 01:39 PM Author: jason_m
Sipphone's server is probably the easiest server to access for those that don't already have some sort of voip system, the Sipphone server is accessible via the Gizmo software, which is free and just dial 1222xxxxxxx for a conference.




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Jan 29, 2008 at 02:23 PM Author:
yeah but didn't you read some members in this page can't hear some are deaf.......because we are deaf.....I am one of the deaf members
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Jan 30, 2008 at 07:09 PM Author: DaveMan
This is a picture of bad HPS skyglow taken by a man in Alberta. I decided to link to the picture itself because the album had way too many pictures to find it on your own. The caption read: "So the thing about Edmonton, actually one among many things about Edmonton, is that it often snows in the winter. Which isn't so bad, that's just the way it is, and you often end up with cloud cover in the winter.

But what ends up happening is however the streetlights are built or whatever, the cloud reflects yucky orange light back down. So this is a picture taken at midnight in Edmonton in December. The sky is bright orange; there is no enhancement of any sort in this picture. The sky is just bright sick orange at night. "

The high res version of the picture can be found here

The pictures are from Andrew Neitsch in 2005 and you can find his website here

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Jan 30, 2008 at 07:27 PM Author: FGS
Whoa! That's the worst sky glow I have ever seen in my entire life. The sky look like its on fire. Did you send an email to IDS with a link to this pic.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.





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Jan 30, 2008 at 08:23 PM Author:
FGS, that's not skyglow, it's an orange sun I wonder if this town lights there streets with 1KW HPS lamps




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Jan 30, 2008 at 09:03 PM Author:
This picture should be shown in other lighting groups with same explains.............and FGS,,,its not IDS...its IDA
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Jan 31, 2008 at 12:39 AM Author: DaveMan
Agreed. Furthermore I don't know where the photographer stands on this issue, but from his caption on the pic, its safe to say he does not like HPS. Why else would he describe it as "yucky orange" which is also how we feel about that same color. Save that pic to your HD, everyone. This could be the pic that puts HPS in the ground.

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Jan 31, 2008 at 04:39 AM Author: FGS
@Jace - My bad. (about the IDA)

I saved to mine as "End of HPS"

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LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


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Mar 16, 2008 at 08:00 PM Author:
Guys, I was thinking this, people calling MV inefficient? Is it because of the blackening of the arc tube making them dim or what?

MV ballast perhaps too late? But lamps, are they ever gonna be banned? I hope not!

Here's my attempt of solution for both more efficient lamp and environment friendly....this same below comment can be found here

Hmmmm maybe those ballasts actually make MV more effiecent, meaning it doesn't dim out like they would in regular MV ballast, I mean MV have less mercury than Quartz Metal Halide, so MV are "greener to the environment" (and to mention their light IS green) So if a 100 watt MH pulse start ballast actually lights them up very well, is actually less polluting than MH and HPS, couldn't MV lamps be saved, and use "new "e-MV" ballast that makes MV lamps and ballast and fixtures more reliable since they don't pollute as much (more dark sky friendly) using diffused Full Cut Off, and using that design of a MH ballast, and makes brightness last longer, considering it more effecient and more environment friendly due to MH having more mercury than MV??? They could be called e-vapor lamps???
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Jul 06, 2008 at 01:34 PM Author: FGS
Have a look at this. Please save the pic to your HDDs. The lit up sky in the background is from all the HPS in the part of the town beyond the hozizon. The part of the sky where the mercs rules is darker.

I got my first whole HID fixture and a mercury vapor one. Read the information after the first paragraph (just a comment on the fixture) It's here. Please tell me if I am wrong on some info or what need to be clear, thanks.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

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Jul 15, 2008 at 01:21 AM Author: DaveMan
@FGS: Cool. That looks like a newer Regent design than the one i have. The info in the paragraphs looks good so far.

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Jul 15, 2008 at 03:26 AM Author: FGS
Hey guys have a look at the most recent forum by GE M400A1. His town is considering banning all the mercs and MHs lamps there. (Dunno how to link that subject line.) Please help him out. I am linking my website's first fixture (The regent) there.

Here's an idea. Why not switch the light off at certain time of the night so people can view the stars. If that's done, therw will be no reason to ban any lighting sources due to light pollution.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


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Jul 15, 2008 at 07:45 AM Author:
Guys the link FGS is mentioning is here
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Jul 16, 2008 at 09:20 PM Author: DaveMan
Sounds good. We need all the links we can get.

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Jul 16, 2008 at 10:25 PM Author: GE M-400A1
To switch off the lights in the middle of the night wou would have to buy a special and expansive photocontrol to do that.

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Jul 17, 2008 at 04:04 AM Author: monkeyface
I got some new regulations about streetlighting in some cities in Switzerland. Many streetlighting departements are now replacing old MV laterns to CMH laterns ( Philips CDO, CDM and CPO-TW). Only on roads in the countryside are lit with HPS.
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Jul 20, 2008 at 03:03 PM Author: FGS
If you can't convince the average people to petition against IDA tell them "Is this all they (the government) want to tell you what to use? Pretty soon they will tell us what to watch, what to read, and the worst of all, what to think. No more creativity or individuality. The basic freedoms goes down the drain. Is that what you want?"

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Jul 20, 2008 at 06:18 PM Author:
Good point, this law is just another example of more government involved in your personal life.
And the government is "trying to protect the environment", how is banning lights helping the environment? it won't except make lighting pollution worse. Ever since mercury vapor fixtures were banned, more and more high pressure sodium fixtures have been taking their place and they just contribute to more pollution in the skies at night. I think it's time to step up to the plate and take action against the DSA, they got mercury vapor lights banned, and now they're trying to get metal halide banned and they're just going to keep at it.Petitions would be a good start.
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Nov 17, 2008 at 08:13 AM Author: DaveMan
Ok everybody. Although the comments thread here seems to have died down, I have seen many of you post pictures with comments supporting us here. Keep up the good work. We will all need to compile the info from all of these if we want to make our case known. I am thinking that maybe it might be possible if they started making pulse start mercury vapor lamps to have another more efficient MV lamp. Also, the Purdue University study on MV lamps working well with trees and HPS lamps causing tree problems is a big one as mentioned before. Someone should write the guy who did that study a letter. Anyways, glad to see the move has not died down. Especially now that it is near the end of 2008 and MV fixtures and ballasts are near impossible to find in stores anywhere. Now is the time to take action.

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Nov 17, 2008 at 09:47 AM Author: FGS
I like the idea of using pulse start MV lamps. Might be one more part in the fixture (ignitor) but if that will keep mercs alive I am for it.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


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Nov 17, 2008 at 11:37 AM Author:
how about a corestar arctube?




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Nov 28, 2008 at 06:32 PM Author:
I like that idea of pulse start mercury lamps, anything that will prevent the extinction of mercury vapor fixtures is a good thing.
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Dec 20, 2008 at 03:47 AM Author: DaveMan
Well it looks like NYC is switching their streetlights from HPS to LED according to an article my dad showed me, and take note of the comments section of this article. A lot of people are voicing their dislike of HPS, including a photographer who says they are bad for photography. Enjoy this link!

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Jan 13, 2009 at 01:33 PM Author:
HPS does have its uses,but not all that good for general illumination.
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Jan 15, 2009 at 12:58 PM Author: FGS
@Form109 - What is a corestar?

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
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Jan 15, 2009 at 01:05 PM Author:
oops its supposed to be spelled corstar....anyway it is single crystal saphire.




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Jan 25, 2009 at 06:50 PM Author:
I noticed on Cooper Lighting's website, all their metal halide fixtures (except for anything below 150 and 1000 watt ones) are only available in pulse start. I never knew standard metal halide fixtures were probe start ones. I always though there were 3 types of metal halide fixtures and ballasts. Now they're not available in the US market anymore.
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Jan 26, 2009 at 02:59 PM Author: DaveMan
I think they caught on to the fact that you can run MV lamps on probe start MH ballasts. If you saw the article, IDA wants to force HPS so we have to stop them. I am a tad unhappy that this thread died down. I think a lot of us agree a petition should be started but nobody wants to be the one to start it. Plus I got a tad more busy with school and what not so there was less time to type out any draft letters to the ones who can help. I apologize for that much. Anyway, I don't know if probe start MH is already banned now or if Cooper just decided to do that for themselves. Either way, some clarification would be helpful. I thank everyone who has typed up papers and uploaded them so far. Keep up the good work. Anyways thats all for now. Thanks again, everyone.

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Jan 26, 2009 at 04:38 PM Author:
From what I read, there was a law passed in 2007 which bans on probe start ballasts from being manufactured and imported after January 1, 2009 and metal halide ballasts have to be at least 88% efficient. I think these laws are unfair and unjust. If anyone has any ideas of how I can help, let me know. I'm even thinking about writing to GE about this situation. I'm surpised they didn't fight when they had the chance to like they did in the 70's, this situation is no different from the 70's energy crisis when there were socialists trying to force LPS everywhere. I'll think of something.
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Jan 26, 2009 at 04:45 PM Author: FGS
The Pulse-Starts can be converted to probe start by simply removing the igniter.
20w MH ballast = ?
35/39w MH ballast = ?
70w MH ballast = 100w mercury vapor
100w MH ballast = 125w mercury vapor
150w MH ballast = ?

You can fill out the rest if you know them.

Why I like LEDs on top of other lighting tech?
LEDs = Upgrade 95% of the applications. (That is if you avoid eBay's LEDs).


LED brainwash? No, people uses them cuz they work well for them.

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Jan 26, 2009 at 05:18 PM Author: Silverliner
Probe start MH ballasts are not entirely banned, only new probe start fixtures are banned. Ballasts are still allowed to be made for replacements in existing fixtures. The reason for this is because converting a probe start fixture to a pulse start violates UL safety standards. So for mercury fixtures you can use either NOS merc ballasts or use probe start MH ballasts if they fit in.

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Jan 26, 2009 at 05:22 PM Author: DaveMan
@ Silverliner: That is good to know.

@FGS: Also good to know. Does anyone think I should make this a member's only album again so we can keep this under wraps or should this knowledge being public not be a problem?

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Jan 26, 2009 at 05:24 PM Author:
nope,let the information spread out!
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Jan 26, 2009 at 05:31 PM Author: Silverliner
Probe start MH ballasts are not entirely banned, only new probe start fixtures are banned. Ballasts are still allowed to be made for replacements in existing fixtures. The reason for this is because converting a probe start fixture to a pulse start violates UL safety standards. So for mercury fixtures you can use either NOS merc ballasts or use probe start MH ballasts if they fit in.

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Jul 28, 2009 at 11:44 PM Author: DaveMan
And to revive this thread, I found another pro MV article. Here is the link to said article, which appears to be about residential landscape lighting.

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Nov 20, 2009 at 05:47 PM Author: gailgrove
I truly think it is terrible that MVs where banned and thought I live in Canada I'm getting worried that the same will happen here too.

Say no to Induction & LED, HID forever!

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Nov 24, 2009 at 08:49 PM Author: DaveMan
Terrible news. NEMA is proposing the MV ban part 2, in which they want to discontinue the manufacture of MV LAMPS by 2016. Yes, lamps. I posted a topic in the general discussion forum regarding this. Fortunately, the bill is still in its infancy stages and we can still fight it. I have also reposted links to some of the articles posted here. Feel free to read and let me know what you think.

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Nov 25, 2009 at 05:04 AM Author:
In the collector's point of view this is a rather good news since in ten years time it will make our own lamps more valuable and rare . Moreover this ban does not impede on MV lamp development since the technology hasn't changed for the past 25 years - it has even rather declined due to the transfer of production to China. If this ban can push for other, better and more efficient white-light technologies (like ceramic MH, there are many color temperatures available!) to be used in streetlighting, then the sooner the better.
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Nov 25, 2009 at 02:15 PM Author: gailgrove
And now I just read that HPS vs MH and I was mad too, in fact I sent them an email telling them to remove it! As well as complaining they banned MV ballasts:)

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Nov 26, 2009 at 07:42 PM Author: FGS
Ok, that does it! I am gonna do something. Mebbe create one of those cardboard science display showing the pros and cons of each HID lamps, mebbe a couple pics showing a average place lit by each light source. Lemme come up with a plan and explain it here. Right now I can't do anything cuz I am visiting my mom's place.

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Dec 11, 2009 at 05:00 PM Author: gailgrove
Here I found a pettition to stop the banning of MV lamps, (yes you heard right lamp ) http://www.petitiononline.com/20016323/petition.html

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Dec 11, 2009 at 05:36 PM Author:
I don't think we should talk about that guy here....
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Dec 11, 2009 at 05:47 PM Author: DaveMan
LOL. Anyways nothing to worry about guys. I wrote another petition that has more info on it as well as sources and testimonials. You can find it here: http://www.petitiononline.com/16mercvp/petition.html. Let me know what you think.

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Dec 11, 2009 at 07:31 PM Author: Parrot
I don't like any of this "get rid of MV and make every light outside HPS" I think they should keep MV and put glare-shields on all the lights it is as easy as that!
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Dec 11, 2009 at 10:50 PM Author: Alights
well pulse start Mh has about as many usable lumens as hps, so i think the end of new hps installations will be around 2012 most places. Mercury vapor lamps are now made for pulse start Mh ballasts. They are made by iwasaki(EYE) lighting, and they are called moon pulse lamps, found on 1000 bulbs.com
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Jan 05, 2010 at 10:08 AM Author: DaveMan
I'm at 64 signatures so far on the petition. It has gotten popular enough that an astronomer and IDA member wrote me an email with a rebuttal. One thing that was in his message was about how mercury is a dangerous substance. I wrote him back last night addressing each concern. Strange it is that people will assume it doesn't contain mercury if the name doesn't have mercury in it.

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Jan 05, 2010 at 01:56 PM Author: J-Frog
Well at least you got the attention of IDA and maybe just maybe you will be able to talk some sense into them.

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Jan 27, 2010 at 11:20 AM Author: DaveMan
I hope so.

By the way, 75 signatures and counting.

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Apr 02, 2015 at 11:27 AM Author: ggillis
Does anybody find that LED street lights give off more light pollution than even HPS? I'm thinking since there is so much light being directed towards the ground that it gets reflected back to the sky. Anybody agree with this?

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Oct 12, 2015 at 06:05 PM Author: Solanaceae
Greg, the led street lights are mainly glare bombs. The entire state fairgrounds are lit by kree led way fly squatters and you would emerge from the fair a few hours later with a headache and eye sprain. Last year, they had probe mh spot lites and some mixed Mercury and mh ael 125s, all killed by LEDisease. The govt says Mercury is outdated and inefficient, the government is also old and inefficient, therefore the govt should ban itself.

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Jan 04, 2016 at 02:47 PM Author: Lumex120
Is DSA still a problem, or have they given up because of the LED installations?

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Jan 04, 2016 at 02:57 PM Author: Solanaceae
Ew at the hps: gyms. The local indoor soccer arena near me has HPSyndrome with MH mixed in as spot replacements for ded fixtures. It's truly appalling to be in there.

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Jan 04, 2016 at 04:19 PM Author: Lumex120
At least we don't have to worry about new HPS installations indoors anymore. now, it is absolutely nothing but LED. not even t5 fluorescent.

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Jan 04, 2016 at 05:15 PM Author: streetlight98
Not here! Still HPS being installed by the utility companies here and I still see plenty of fluorescents. I haven't heard much from IDA lately... I assume LED is just as polluting as MH because LEDs are also very high in blue because it is a blue light with yellow phosphor to make a white light. The blue light is what scatters and creates sky glow.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 09:08 AM Author: Lumex120
They skyglow from LED is bad, but not as bad as HPS.

Any machine is a smoke machine if you operate it wrong enough.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 10:29 AM Author: streetlight98
That's because the LEDs aren't as bright. But a car dealership or large parking lot lit with MH has a lot of skyglow. The only difference is that it's white.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 02:08 PM Author: Cal
"HPS may be the most efficient in terms of raw lumens BUT it takes four times as many lumens from a HPS bulb to equal the same amount of visibility from a metal halide or mercury vapor bulb due to the fact that the human eye is more sensitive to green light than red light since green is in the middle of the visibility spectrum and red is at the low end"

I have been saying this for literally _years_ since I became part of this community, and rubbed against certain zealots of orange light on this side of the pond, but no one feckin listens to me. The only sodium that really packs punch (that isn't enormously wasteful 4 or 600 Watt HPS) is LPS but that has other issues, like no colour rendering at all and comparatively short bulb life. Eh, there are fluorescents that run circles around LPS when it comes to lamp life.

Mercury isn't *that* bright but in an effective luminaire it can still be a viable light source. In the UK a lot of surviving mercury installations are in post-tops, which have pathetic on-the-ground levels of illumination.


Perhaps the dark sky communities are under the misguidance that HPS can be filtered like LPS.
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Aug 09, 2016 at 02:16 PM Author: Lumex120
Could not agree more. The streets here are lit with 100w HPS mounted pretty high up and if you want to take a walk at night or something you need to use a flashlight since the light output is near useless. At the same time I have seen streets lit with 100 and 175w mercury vapor and to be honest you probably dont even need to have your headlights on. You can see just fine compared to the HPS.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 02:16 PM Author: Solanaceae
I rather HPS over LEDs, they don't give headaches, but the quality of lighting is horrible. As David said, HPS has more raw lumens but needs four times the power to equal MV and MH since humans are more sensitive to green light.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 02:18 PM Author: Lumex120
Thats true too. I find the color of the older LED streetlights they installed to be pleasant but the newer ones are just plain nauseating. No other light source has this effect on me.
Also, that is pretty much saying it takes a 200w HPS to equal a 50w merc. Is that true?

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Aug 09, 2016 at 03:57 PM Author: streetlight98
@ trencheel303: Yeah they're crazy. If anything, HPS is even harder to filter out than clear MVs!

@ Zarlog: No, the data stated that it took four times the LUMENS, not watts. Which I don't think it's quite that drastic but there is a gap. I've seen 100W MVs get replaced by 100W HPS and the road is visually just as bright. That's over twice the amount of lumens (around 9500 versus 4000 for HPS and MV respectively) but certainly not four. What you also have to remember about MVs is that the lamps rarely burned out (talking pre-90s here) so most were left until they did inevitably die, so their output was rubbish. And the refractors on many were likely browned out or just plain filthy from lack of proper maintenance. So when the HPS lights were installed, the visual light levels were probably retained. Compared to all brand new MV lamps, the HPS is dimmer but in reality, most MVs were not at 100% output when they were replaced. Many indeed had light hours but many more were heavy used and dimmed out (a testament to their great longevity, as quite a few MVs removed in the 90s around here had their original 1960s bulbs in them!)

Anyway, I can attest that PSMH is just as effective as HPS (maybe even more so, especially CMH) since a local Stop & Shop upgraded their lighting from 400W HPS to what I believe is 350W PSMH and the parking lot is lit SO much better. Not as bright but it doesn't have to be since it's so much easier to see under the white light. In order to see adequately under HPS, the area has to appear overlit.

Providence RI has been replacing 100 and 250W HPS lights with 400w HPS lights and the 400W HPS STILL doesn't light the roads effectively. It's bright as hell but not any easier to see at night on those neighborhood streets. All they accomplished by installing slews of 400W HPS lights in neighborhoods was making people go buy thicker curtains to block out the "sunlight" coming in their windows at all hours of the night.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 04:07 PM Author: Solanaceae
400 watt HPS in NEIGHBORHOODS?! I'd flip out if the city did that. The opening to some hoods here are lit with 400 watt MV, and the area is perfectly lit. The new hood where were building is lit with 100w fco GE fixtures (idk what they are) and the old part is lit with NEMA buckets. The adjacent hood is lit with those glare bomb HPS acorns of either 70 or 100 watts.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 05:21 PM Author: streetlight98
Well, Providence is all ghetto so these "neighborhoods" in question are blocks of riff-raff living in multi-story apartment buildings with about three feet of space between buildings but yes, it is a neighborhood in the sense that people live there (i.e. it's not commercially zoned property). Most of the side street are lit with 250w HPS though, not 400W. Only a few of the "questionable" areas are 400W HPS. However, these 250W HPS lights were installed in the early 90s to replace 100 and 175W MV lights. Yes, they went from 4000 and 7500 lumen fixtures to like 27000 lumens! While this isn't the best area of the state, I certainly don't think 250W HPS is necessary for this road.

And 400W HPS on this road? Come on! There's not even driveways or anything on this road lol.

Anyway, they're replacing all the 250 and 400W HPS lights with 139W Cree LEDs (yep, replacing the 250 AND 400W lights with 250W= LEDs. I guess they figured out 400W is freakin' overkill lol).

Here's a single lane alley road lit by 250W HPS on every pole! More than likely this street originally had 100W mercs!

And check out this DOUBLE 400W HPS pole at the corner of a road and an alley street. This is more than most of our major intersections with traffic lights have! The upsweep pipe arm was added later. The tapered elliptical arm is from the 60s or 70s, though the most it originally would have held would have been a 400W merc. Likely only a 175W MV though!

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Aug 09, 2016 at 06:04 PM Author: nicksfans
Wow, that's some crazy overkill! Here they were replacing 175w MV with 100w or 150w HPS until they started going LED. 400w MV got replaced with 250w or 400w HPS until the LEDs took over (though I have spotted a few 400w PSMH AEL 125s too). We never had 100w or 250w MV in any significant numbers, at least not during my lifetime. I do know where there are a couple 100w MV NEMAs still in service, though, and they're on a reasonably busy road, too!

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Aug 09, 2016 at 08:42 PM Author: streetlight98
Here there used to be 100, 175, 400, and 1000W MV lights here, the 1000W lights primarily being floods but there were some 1000W MV cobraheads around. There were multiple utility companies in RI here until National Grid took over around 2000. These utilities belonged to one of two parent companies: New England Electric System (NEES) and Eastern Utilities Associates (EUA). NEES owned Narragansett Electric (NECo, the largest utility in RI at the time) and EUA owned Blackstone Valley Electric (BVE) and Newport Electric.

Unless otherwise requested by the municipality, NEES replaced MVs on the following basis:
100W MV --> 50W HPS
175W MV --> 100W HPS
400W MV --> 250W HPS
1000W MV --> 400W HPS


And EUA replaced MVs in a similar fashion:
100W MV --> 70W HPS
175W MV --> 100W HPS
400W MV --> 250W HPS
1000W MV --> 400W HPS

Providence is in former NECo territory. So when they joined the HPS bandwagon (HPS conversions were only at the request of the municipality; if the town didn't ask the electric company for HPS, they kept the MVs. This remained true until NGrid took over) they just asked that certain lights be upgraded to 250W, which NECo gladly did.

There are some towns in RI that are mostly MV because they never entered a contract to replace the MVs with HPS. Or if they did, the changeout was not completed before NGrid took over. When NGrid took over, the mass replacements stopped and the remaining MVs were kept until they required service. Unfortunately the better half of the lights were HPS by the time NGrid took over, but NGrid kept relamping 100w MVs until 2014! Now all wattages are HPS'ed as they require service, though dayburners will still get new PCs unless the fixture needs other parts like a lamp, door, or lens. NGrid replaces lights the same way as the old guys did. f you are in a former NECo town, 100W MV gets replaced with 50W HPS. If you're in an EUA area, 100W MV gets replaced with 70W HPS.

So NGrid only maintains 50, 70, 100, 250, and 400W HPS. There are a number of 100, 175, 400, and 1000W MVs left. Most of them left are 100W MV cobraheads and 1000W flood lights.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 09:15 PM Author: nicksfans
I should add that we also do not have any 1000w cobraheads here except for a few privately-owned ones in parking lots and the like. The closest ones I know of on an actual roadway are in Asheville, NC.

Also, there are very few small MV cobraheads here. For the longest time, NEMAs were used for 175w MV (and later 100/150w HPS) and medium cobraheads were used for 400w MV (yes, NEMAs are still commonly found lighting streets here). There was a short period in the mid-late 2000s where Duke Energy switched to AEL 115s for 175w MV...that stopped with the MV fixture/ballast ban. Then all small cobraheads were 100/150w HPS or (usually 100w) PSMH (though they had been installing the HPS ones at the same time as the MV ones). And yes, they were still installing new MV lights in some places until the ban, the aforementioned 115s for smaller areas and 125s for larger areas. I've even seen an AEL 115 FCO with a clear 175w lamp...talk about odd!

There are several power companies in SC too...mainly Duke Energy and Blue Ridge Electric Co-op in my part of the state. I'm not exactly sure how the latter goes about servicing outdoor lights because I don't live in their service area. Other parts of the state are served by SCE&G or Santee Cooper...not familiar with their methods either but I've seen many more small cobraheads in their service areas.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 10:27 PM Author: streetlight98
FCO clear MV is about the best it gets in terms of low sky glow. We have a lot of M-250A2 FCOs from the 80s with dual-wattage 100/175W ballasts (most are 100W) and they have /DX lamps. No glare from far away and no glare from underneath. FCO MV with coated lamps is as low-glare as it gets! Those fixtures really are cool with the multi-faceted reflectors.

There's never been any electric-company-owned MH or PSMH lighting. Only incandescent, MV, and HPS. After the mid-90s NECo stopped installing MVs (Newport Electric had new MVs installed up until the time NGrid took over in 2000). The last NECo mercs were all drop lens Thomas & Betts 113s and 125s. The former in 100 and 175W MV and the latter in 400W. I've seen newer style M-400s in Newport Electric territory, so they were still using mercs past 1997. The M-400s must've been from before NGrid took over though. All new NGrid lights are HPS with no questions asked.

Oh and none of the utilities used NEMAs here (thank god; those things have the worst optics!) though there is a municipal utility that uses 50W HPS NEMAs, though they're in the midst of an LED changeout.

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Aug 09, 2016 at 10:33 PM Author: nicksfans
I wish everyone used PSMH instead of HPS. Everything would look so much better IMO. I need to replace the nasty 70w HPS flood that lights my side yard.

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Aug 10, 2016 at 07:04 AM Author: streetlight98
Same. HPS is cheaper, offers longer lamp life, and *supposedly* yields higher LPW according to the carton ratings so except in color-critical areas, HPS is used.

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Aug 10, 2016 at 07:59 AM Author: Lumex120
So does MV. Except for the higher LPW, but it can fix that with higher visibility even in very low-light conditions. I also wished that they used PSMH here instead. I have seen it used in other places and it makes streets look beautiful and brightly lit at night. The town I know of has assorted 175, 250 and 400w MV cobraheads, and I think when they put up new lights it is either m400R3's in 400w MH and then they use /DX mercs in them, m400R3's in 250w PSMH replace 250 or 175w mercs. Of course they don't replace them until the ballast fails or they get damaged. I saw them putting up a lot of new lights on their main highway and they were using M400R3s with 400w metal halides (not mercs this time, I saw them putting in coated Sylvania Metalarcs.)

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Aug 10, 2016 at 08:45 AM Author: Solanaceae
Of all the spying the nsa and government does, I wish they'd check this discussion out (dale gribble intensifies).

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Aug 10, 2016 at 04:00 PM Author: nicksfans
I'm serious when I say HPS might be my least favorite light source. I was in Mount Pleasant, SC (near Charleston) recently, and they had a bunch of Holophane Mongooses in 320w PSMH on traditional long arms like you'd use with cobraheads. This is the only way I think Mongooses look decent, by the way. The lighting was comfortable yet effective, and the lights were well-maintained with very few lamps that were color shifted or unlit. If I had my way, everyone would be installing Cooper OVW (the "Texas special") or Lumec Helios lights in PSMH form (that is, if I couldn't bring MV back).

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Aug 10, 2016 at 04:26 PM Author: Lumex120
I dont really have a least favorite light source, but if I was in charge of lighting, there would be 150w PSMH m250R2s on residential streets, etc.

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Aug 10, 2016 at 06:14 PM Author: streetlight98
Not a fan of the "Mongeese" (my plural for the Mongoose lol) either, though I actually do not like the OVW Texas uses either. Only if they started painting them silver, had a drop lens, and used the classic reflector that the OVM and all the real OV-25s used. The gray paint and FCO just ruins the look of the OV-25.

I love PSMH though but GE has already discontinued the majority of its PSMH. They haven't changed their catalog sheets yet but as of January 1, 2016, none of their street lights are made in induction or PSMH. HPS only (well, and those LED contraptions that I refuse to call cobraheads).

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Aug 10, 2016 at 06:59 PM Author: Lumex120
Ugh. There go my dreams of ordering a 100w PSMH M250R2 from GE.

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Oct 01, 2016 at 10:43 PM Author: gmercury2000
Interesting as we're still able to get 150w PSMH M250R2's unless they're NOS. We don't install them often so that may be the case. I know those pricks at GE stopped making replacement power doors for the 400 series, yet they still make the A3 series???? Makes no sense. I hate GE with a passion. They use to make great lighting equipment but as of the last couple years their lighting line is pure garbage. And before anyone asks, I work with their crap on a nightly basis.
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Oct 02, 2016 at 07:27 AM Author: wattMaster
Why not use probe start MH?

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Oct 02, 2016 at 07:59 AM Author: gmercury2000
Probe start are banned for sale as new fixtures.
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Oct 02, 2016 at 10:42 AM Author: wattMaster
You can just "retrofit" it by cutting the ignitor's wires.

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Oct 02, 2016 at 11:53 AM Author: gmercury2000
True but if you have pulse start then why rig it to use probe start?
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Oct 02, 2016 at 11:57 AM Author: wattMaster
Probe start lamps are more common.

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Oct 02, 2016 at 12:12 PM Author: gmercury2000
True, however me personally I'm not going to start cutting wires on a $200+ fixture if I don't have the right bulb. Now if it was something like say wanting to run a 50w MV bulb on a 50w pulse start ballast that would be a different story.
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Oct 02, 2016 at 01:31 PM Author: streetlight98
They've gotten that bad in just a couple of years? I have a 250W HPS M-250R2 made this year. My 1985 M-250R2 FCO is way better built but the 2016 one doesn't seem that bad to me aside from the reflector being wobbly (but it's been that way for years; my FCO has a thicker reflector and it doesn't wobble at much).

Do you mean the lights are physically crap (break easily, cheap parts) or that they don't last as long? Yeah GE has thinned the herd quite a bit in an effort to remain competitive with these new LED-only companies like Cree and LeoTek that never were important in the HID days. Now there's a lot more competition in the lighting industry!

I have a feeling GE will eventually ditch all non-LED lighting. They might still make HID and fluorescent lamps under their name, but they'll probably be cheap Chinese lamps that simply have the GE name on them. Their MV lamps are garbage anyway, though not sure about their HPS and MH lamps. I know the MH ones were bad a few years ago. GE's fluorescent lamps are the best though (IMO). I'll be very sad the day GE stops making their own fluorescent lamps. They did foreshadow that they will be cutting more non-LED products in the coming years. No idea what those products could be though.

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Oct 11, 2016 at 08:53 PM Author: wattMaster
I do know that they are stopping production of CFLs.

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Oct 12, 2016 at 06:13 AM Author: streetlight98
Yeah I went to Lowe's last night and there were almost NO CFLs! At ALL!

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Oct 12, 2016 at 06:43 AM Author: wattMaster
Not even high power ones?
And, for sky glow, LED seems bad for this because it has a fuller spectrum.

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Oct 12, 2016 at 07:19 AM Author: Lumex120
The local Menards has tons of CFLs still, and they seem to be selling pretty well. As for the LED skyglow, it is like 10x worse than MH. I have seen the skyglow from my backyard at night and to be honest I don't really like it. the HPS skyglow in the winter was much warmer and more pleasant IMO. Now it just looks like an overcast day with the sun dying.

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Oct 12, 2016 at 08:32 AM Author: wattMaster
Because most of the IDSA talk was about 9 years ago, what lighting do they like/dislike today?

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Oct 12, 2016 at 10:32 AM Author: streetlight98
It's IDA, by the way. Basically, before LEDs they wanted nothing but LPS and HPS. Now that LEDs are here to stay, they say LEDs are good as long as they're warmer colored. They don't like the bluish LEDs (and quite frankly, neither do I; I find the warmer incandescent-like LEDs a bit easier on the eyes when I'm driving at night).

Please check out my newly-updated website! McCann Lighting Company is where my street light collection is displayed in detail.

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