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All are DEAD!

All are DEAD!

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These may look off but they are on, every ballast was buzzing to the point where it sounded like it was unraveling itself

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Light Information

Light Information

Lamp
Lamp Type:Fluorescent
Fixture
Ballast Type:HPF Magnetic

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Lightingguy1994
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Feb 12, 2018 at 02:39 PM Author: Lightingguy1994
That's highly unusual, if they are all magnetic and buzzing but not running, they must be receiving brownout conditions in the power. Such as ~80v AC which would stop them from starting the lamps

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:10 PM Author: lightinglover8902
I never experienced a brownout before, but I did experienced a blackout, were AC voltage is at 0v. But here that isn't the case in this picture.

I like HID lamps, especially the High Pressure Sodium lights, they have a orange color, which is actually my favorite color! Smiley  High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:12 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
This wasn't a brownout because the lights on the right (not seen) are on

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:13 PM Author: lightinglover8902
Oh, and that case, must be a bad ballast.

I like HID lamps, especially the High Pressure Sodium lights, they have a orange color, which is actually my favorite color! Smiley  High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:14 PM Author: Lightingguy1994
The thing is, big buildings like that are using more than one phase and if one of them goes down, it will only affect some areas or result in situations where half the lights work, or lights work but no power outlets etc. I could be wrong though

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:17 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
This is a trailer and you are right about it being more than one phase (120/208). But it's always on 120. They use 208 for when 120 goes out

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:26 PM Author: WestinghouseCeramalux

The thing is, big buildings like that are using more than one phase and if one of them goes down, it will only affect some areas or result in situations where half the lights work, or lights work but no power outlets etc. I could be wrong though


+1
Definitely a power supply issue here.

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:29 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
If half the room was out the teachers PC would not be working because every outlet is a mirror image to one side

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:37 PM Author: WestinghouseCeramalux

If half the room was out the teachers PC would not be working because every outlet is a mirror image to one side


But, if the lighting is 277V (and it most likely is) it wouldn't be connected to your classroom receptacles would it? (Unless everyone likes BBQ computer for lunch.)

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:44 PM Author: WestinghouseCeramalux

The thing is, big buildings like that are using more than one phase and if one of them goes down, it will only affect some areas or result in situations where half the lights work, or lights work but no power outlets etc. I could be wrong though


All of the schools I've ever done work in were 3 Phase 480V. Each phase is 277V to ground, and this voltage is used to power lighting. Most likely, the lighting is controlled by a master lighting control panel that is located in the main electrical room. All three phases are fed into the LCP, and distributed as evenly as possible though out the facility. If one phase fails, you can have random fixtures out here and there, sometimes in very strange looking patterns.

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:47 PM Author: lightinglover8902
I think all commercial and industrial buildings have 120v, 240v to 277v. 277v is for the lighting, is my guess, sometimes 208v.

I like HID lamps, especially the High Pressure Sodium lights, they have a orange color, which is actually my favorite color! Smiley  High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:53 PM Author: WestinghouseCeramalux

I think all commercial and industrial buildings have 120v, 240v to 277v. 277v is for the lighting, is my guess, sometimes 208v.


Most commercial and industrial buildings use either 3 phase 480V (phase to phase)/277V (to ground), or 3 phase 208V (phase to phase)/120V (to ground). Very rarely does one see single phase 240/120 in a commercial space. 208 is far more common than 240. 240V is 90+ % residential.

(In the voice of Arnold Schwarzenegger) -I see vintage HID lamp; must have it now, Now, NOW!

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Feb 12, 2018 at 04:57 PM Author: suzukir122
These are all magnetic HPF rapid start fixtures, I can tell in the picture... but how do you
know these fixtures are on?
One clear sign to me that these fixtures are off, there's no visible filament heating from any of the ends.
I think either these lights are off, or, there's no power to the fixtures.
Also, when HPF rapid start fixtures have an EOL lamp, the ballasts won't buzz loudly all of the time.
Most of the time the ballast would get quieter as both lamps dim down to a dim flicker, with the
occasional flashing a little afterwards.
So, these aren't dead... just no power to the fixtures

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:05 PM Author: streetlight98
I agree with suzukir, these look like they're off.

All the public schools I went to had 120V lighting, even on the exterior in most cases. The gymnasium lights were probably the only non-120V lights, either 208 or 277V.

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:05 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
I know these are on because it's only on one light switch and it's on
That's the only reason why the doors were open The teach would use them if they worked

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:15 PM Author: Lightingguy1994
One switch? , That leaves the possibility that somewhere in the line after the switch, that section of lights is disconnected, likely because work may be starting or it is a fault. But happy to see that it is T12 still.....at least for now, but you may see T8 in there next time if they get serviced

In my old elementary school, the lights were 120v but some on different breakers. This was apparent one day when we had an electives and I picked the cooking activity. There was a hot plate in the classroom plugged into the wall and it was tripping the breaker making some lights in the room and the room next door turn off.

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:19 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
Let me ask the school electrician tomorrow to see whats wrong (i can enter school at 4am)

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:23 PM Author: suzukir122

I know these are on because it's only on one light switch and it's on
That's the only reason why the doors were open The teach would use them if they worked


@F96T12 DD VHO, then there's more than likely some kind of failure regarding power supply to these fixtures.
Are you sure there isn't like... a secondary light switch hidden somewhere that controls these
fixtures? I mean, that's 6 fixtures in this picture in a row that are off. That's a lot of fixtures... all
with very reliable ballasts.
What I think is happening... they've disconnected the power to all of them in preparation for newer fixtures,
or newer ballasts/lamps.

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:31 PM Author: Lightingguy1994
@suzukir122

That sounds very likely and reasonable. It is getting harder to find T12 installations in places like schools. The fact this one still has them in 2018 is surprising, so it may very likely be that a T8 or even LED retrofit is coming and they could be doing only some fixtures at a time to minimize disruption, though here they have always done it over the summer break or closed off some rooms during other times to do it.

@F96T12 DD VHO

If this is indeed work is going to start on them, could be a chance to score some ballasts if you can make a deal with the electricians which you seem to be good with them or know them already i take it. Lamps seem to be altos and probably the 34w so not really worth scoring. Fixtures if they replace them totally seem like they are a fair score

Magnetic F32T8

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Feb 12, 2018 at 05:47 PM Author: suzukir122
I agree with Lightingguy1994... don't be like me and miss out on the opportunity. I missed out badly
when I was in school, when they replaced all of the louvered HPF rapid start fixtures with 1 lamp 32watt T8 wrap-arounds.
I saw many louvered fixtures that had been taken down, sitting near the entrance of the school on the wall waiting to
be picked up. That was a great opportunity... missed.
But anyways, if this isn't the case, you got lucky. Old school lighting like this is definitely getting rare.

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3. Severe Thunderstorms of all kinds
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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:25 PM Author: xmaslightguy
I've seen it happen multiple times at work where they loose one of the 3 phases, so there's random parts of the building out.
I've also seen it happen more than once there one phase goes out, and another does a brown-out...
For that browned-out one, incandescent looked about half-brightness (I took a volt-meter & measured it once - they were getting indeed 60v on the 120v line)which would end up being 138v on the 277v...
For that browned-out phase:
Magnetic ballasts: simply went out, at most a dim glow in the lamp ends.
Electronic ballasts: it depended on the ballast / what voltage... some 277v T8 IS ballast would be off for the most part, but would do erratic/random flashes full brightness.
Some newer 120v/277v T8 IS ballast (using the 120v for some reason) actually ran near full brightness...but with a noticeable flicker - kinda like when you put T8's on a T12 HPF RS magnetic. (actually pretty impressive considering they were running @ only 60v)
Stuff like refrigerators & freezers: obviously didn't like that low voltage..
& the HVAC in particular didn't like it..
..were deff some odd sounds being made by equipment when that was happening.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:36 PM Author: xmaslightguy
Quote
This is a trailer and you are right about it being more than one phase (120/208). But it's always on 120. They use 208 for when 120 goes out

LOL that makes no sense .. nor would it work that way.

If this is a trailer (or 'temp' building as schools usually call them) - which is believable looking at the layout
208v is likely used for heating.
120v for lighting & outlets.
Its also a double-wide (or more - but I can only see onr beam/connection in the pic). And it could very likely be that each 'section' is wired as its own unit (to make moving easy) & thus has its own switch for the lights.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:41 PM Author: sol
If there is only one switch, maybe that one switch operates several contactors and one of them, feeding these, is faulty. I would imagine a contactor would be used for more than six fixture in a go, but there are odd installations.

I've also seen classrooms with just one switch by the door. It operates only part of the lighting. If you want the rest, there is another switch (most likely two or more) close to the teacher's desk to control all the lights. When you come in, you can only turn on some of the lights ; you have to go to the other switches to turn every one on. Makes it easier for the teacher to control the lights when the level has to change depending on projector use, etc.
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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:42 PM Author: sol


Its also a double-wide (or more - but I can only see onr beam/connection in the pic). And it could very likely be that each 'section' is wired as its own unit (to make moving easy) & thus has its own switch for the lights.


This seems more plausible than my explanation.
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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:44 PM Author: xmaslightguy
Quote
every ballast was buzzing

And sorry but I truly don't believe that .. I would need to see it in person.
Video evidence would sorta show, but even there the sound can easily be edited/faked...

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:51 PM Author: suzukir122
@xmaslightguy, yep, I never trust audio from videos either nowadays. Mainly images lol

Interests
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2. Weighting/staying extremely athletic
3. Severe Thunderstorms of all kinds
4. Food and drinks. So gimme them bbq ribs
Yep
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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:53 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO

And sorry but I truly don't believe that .. I would need to see it in person.
Video evidence would sorta show, but even there the sound can easily be edited/faked...

Then again they all sound the same there have been 2 going instead of all i'll have to check with the electrician tomorrow

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Feb 12, 2018 at 06:58 PM Author: streetlight98
I have seen classrooms with one switch controlling all the lighting. My high school's newest wing from around 2000 had one switch in each room controlling like 12-15 three-lamp F32T8 lenses 2x4 troffers depending on the room. That only works out to be like 12 amps, so plenty of room on a 20A circuit. No contactors or anything. I hated that set-up though since it was either stupid bright in the rooms with all the lights on or dim with just light from the windows with the lights off. I think having the center lamp on one switch and the outers on another would have been nice, or at least staggered the troffers between two switches...

Anyway, since it's a trailer, perhaps the feed for this row of lights is broken, assuming each row of lights is on its own "branch" and then gets tied back at the switch.

#167

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Feb 12, 2018 at 07:27 PM Author: sol
Regarding the buzzing, there are plenty of gadgets in today's classrooms that can buzz and depending on the acoustical properties of the room it can be confused for ballast buzz when it is not.

I have worked in a school that had two switches per room. One for all the troffers on the ceiling (2-lamp 2x4, about 20 fixtures per room) and the other switch for the chalkboard lighting (fixtures on the wall). We never really used any multimedia when I was there so I can't comment on how it worked. I always had every light on all the time.
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Feb 12, 2018 at 07:30 PM Author: xmaslightguy
Quote
Anyway, since it's a trailer, perhaps the feed for this row of lights is broken, assuming each row of lights is on its own "branch" and then gets tied back at the switch.

Like I say, looks like its a double-wide just judging by that center beam/connector - fullsize the pic & take a look at the beat-up condition of it too -
Double-wide is very common in those portable classroom buildings - atleast the ones I've seen here on CO

If its all on one switch, first place to check would be the interconnects between the building-sections (actually even separate switches if one doesn't work & there's only a single electric panel for both sections (rather than each having its own), you'd do the same thing)


Quote
Then again they all sound the same there have been 2 going instead of all i'll have to check with the electrician tomorrow

Yep he should be able to easily say. & find the issue if there is one.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 13, 2018 at 12:57 AM Author: Men of God
全军覆没,233333,估计是电压异常升高烧毁了!

我不会英文,所以我用中文,请你们用翻译网站翻译我打的字!

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Feb 13, 2018 at 09:31 AM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
Problem solved by School Electrician:

He said "There were 3/6 fixtures not even wired into the ceiling, the remaining 3 are fixtures with a ballast and some having no tubes. One fixture (closest to back of the room) was making all the ballast sound and was making the fixture rattle making the two noises sound like two ballasts. The fixtures that were not wired in had new lamps and ballasts. The two fixtures ahead of the noisy one only had one lamp which is seen because it's pointing to the camera, this resulted in that one lamp in each fixture to die quickly."
Thats all he could find

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Feb 13, 2018 at 10:28 AM Author: Lightingguy1994
Wow whoever installed them when the trailer was built sure sucked at their job! Haha

As for the lights with 1 lamp installed, since these are magnetic they require both lamps to be present to work. Just pop in another tube and should be good tah go

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Feb 13, 2018 at 01:12 PM Author: suzukir122
Yep... Lightingguy1994 is right... also, doesn't really seem like the electrician knew what he was talking
about, with that last part. If there is partial light from the remaining lamp that is inside the fixture,
that lamp is on the starting side of the ballast. The only way it would get closer to dying quicker, would
be lack of electrode filament heating on one end. Otherwise, those lamps won't be dying at all.

One fixture making buzzing noises... now THAT'S a situation I can see happening.

Interests
1. Motorcycles, Women, and Lighting (especially fluorescent)
2. Weighting/staying extremely athletic
3. Severe Thunderstorms of all kinds
4. Food and drinks. So gimme them bbq ribs
Yep
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Feb 13, 2018 at 04:24 PM Author: streetlight98
Interesting that these were never wired because the lamps have some wear on them...

#167

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Feb 13, 2018 at 04:26 PM Author: lightinglover8902
Oh so it was a electrical problem??

I like HID lamps, especially the High Pressure Sodium lights, they have a orange color, which is actually my favorite color! Smiley  High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium High Pressure Sodium

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Feb 13, 2018 at 04:28 PM Author: suzukir122
And from the pic, it also looks as if every fixture has lamps in them...

Interests
1. Motorcycles, Women, and Lighting (especially fluorescent)
2. Weighting/staying extremely athletic
3. Severe Thunderstorms of all kinds
4. Food and drinks. So gimme them bbq ribs
Yep
Lighting has been a passion of mine since I was born. I consider everyone on LG to be a friend

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Feb 13, 2018 at 05:02 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO

And from the pic, it also looks as if every fixture has lamps in them...

The fixtures with one lamp: that one lamp is pointing towards the camera while the opposite lamp is unseen as it’s going in the opposite direction and blocked by the ballast cover
And yes it may appear every fixture is lamped but what I just explained above is saying there is supposed to be 2 lamps in the fixtures but the only lamp visible were the ones pointing towards the camera and the adjacent tube is not seen

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Feb 13, 2018 at 05:07 PM Author: suzukir122
I'm getting a strong vibe from this that they will be taking all of those fixtures down... lol
If so, cross your fingers and hope they AREN'T LED!

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Feb 13, 2018 at 05:16 PM Author: F96T12 DD VHO
No, my school has stocks of 3’ and 4’ boxes full of PHILLIPS ALTO CW fluorescent lights
They have like two room stacked up to the ceiling with fluorescent they’re not running out anytime soon hopefully

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Feb 13, 2018 at 05:18 PM Author: Choukai Kai
Now is an opportunity to install T5 High Output tubes, so I noticed are Philips T12 40w xD

R.I.P T12
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Feb 13, 2018 at 05:23 PM Author: icefoglights

I've seen it happen multiple times at work where they loose one of the 3 phases, so there's random parts of the building out.
I've also seen it happen more than once there one phase goes out, and another does a brown-out...
For that browned-out one, incandescent looked about half-brightness (I took a volt-meter & measured it once - they were getting indeed 60v on the 120v line)which would end up being 138v on the 277v...
For that browned-out phase:
Magnetic ballasts: simply went out, at most a dim glow in the lamp ends.
Electronic ballasts: it depended on the ballast / what voltage... some 277v T8 IS ballast would be off for the most part, but would do erratic/random flashes full brightness.
Some newer 120v/277v T8 IS ballast (using the 120v for some reason) actually ran near full brightness...but with a noticeable flicker - kinda like when you put T8's on a T12 HPF RS magnetic. (actually pretty impressive considering they were running @ only 60v)
Stuff like refrigerators & freezers: obviously didn't like that low voltage..
& the HVAC in particular didn't like it..
..were deff some odd sounds being made by equipment when that was happening.

I remember losing a phase at work once. Fun times. Not really a total failure, but a series of unrelated failures. Started out when a neighboring building blew a transformer, knocking power out on the block. Building has an automatic standby generator that would kick in and power most of the building. However, when power was restored and the generator shut down, one of the phase contactors in the transfer switch failed to switch over. Most things either worked or didn't. Most lights used multi-volt electronic ballasts that seemed to work fine. Some were dimmer and there were a few flashers. In the computer room, the full desktop PC and laser printer wouldn't work, but the thin clients worked normally. A cheap clip on fan that was blowing on the printer to help keep it cool was turning very slowly.

01010010 01101111 01100010 01100101 01110010 01110100

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Feb 14, 2018 at 12:59 PM Author: Powergroove
@ choukai Kai, R.I.P. T5 ho. T5 HO is utter garbage. They are rated for on electronic ballast which means the comparison is skewed by 10% in favor of them. In the 80's GE introduced halo phosphor F40T12 that made 3700 lumens on an electronic ballast and it didn't produce the glare of this modern crap.

Keep government out of the lighting industry.

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Feb 14, 2018 at 01:12 PM Author: Beta 5

Now is an opportunity to install T5 High Output tubes, so I noticed are Philips T12 40w xD

R.I.P T12


Why?

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Feb 14, 2018 at 01:14 PM Author: Lightingguy1994
The long T5s are not as good as made out to be, they are very bad for glare and they burn out fast and boringly. T8 and T12 are capable of giving more light than a T5, they just look bright because of the compressed light output. Now if they made magnetic ballasts for those that would at least be much more interesting and they would last!

Magnetic F32T8

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Feb 14, 2018 at 01:39 PM Author: suzukir122
@Choukai kai, nope, gotta disagree with you man. T5's will not out last these T12's. Although these are Philip Alto's and likely 34 watts,
I'm willing to bet they would outlast T5's
Replacing these fixtures for T5 ones would be a bad move... and if we're talking two lamp 54watt HO T5's, that's even more
energy down the drain... from a much, much less reliable lighting source.

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Feb 14, 2018 at 08:44 PM Author: xmaslightguy
@icefoglights:
LOL after you mentioned it, the last time it happened, I do remember that some of little PC's kept running even @ 60v (til I said shut them all down - even the ones that had full power)...didn't matter since the server was off anyway.
My figuring was right, after running in that messed-up way for an hour or so the power went fully out...then everything came on a short time later. (which happened in previous times too...my guess is Xcel Energy purposely shut it down for the little bit of time it took to disconnect/reconnect things after making whatever repairs were needed)

One of the times I heard it was caused by a truck hitting a power pole, another time was a transformer that blew.



----------
Re T5HO:
I'd take those any day over F34's
For some of my houseplants a few years ago I upgraded from F40T12 to F54T5 (no plans to go back but ofcourse still have the old light)

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 14, 2018 at 09:51 PM Author: suzukir122
I also like the F54T5's as well. Definitely... and I would prefer them over 34watt Philip Alto's as well normally,
but I wouldn't use them for this particular classroom. The main reasons why I wouldn't use T5's (in this classroom)
is because of the glare, wattage, and also the unreliability from the electronic ballasts. lol
If anything, I'd probably replace these Philip Alto's with more reliable 34watt lamps, or, F40T12 full powered lamps.

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Feb 14, 2018 at 11:13 PM Author: xmaslightguy
@suzukir122:
In the case of these I wouldn't replace with F54 either, I'd just put in proper F40's (or if an upgrade was truly needed/wanted F32T8's - atleast then the same fixtures could remain & there wouldn't be glare issues)

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 14, 2018 at 11:25 PM Author: suzukir122
And it'd be much less of a hassle. F54HO T5's are awesome though... the tubes themselves specifically. I still want to
buy the rare F40 PL rapid start ballast I found on Ebay, and possibly test F54T5's with it. That is in my list of future plans

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Feb 14, 2018 at 11:33 PM Author: xmaslightguy
@suzukir122:
I want to try the same as well if I ever get ahold of one of those F40 PL RS ballasts!
I'd love to see a pair of those lamps do a RS startup .. and be able to run on a magnetic.

Colored Fluorescent's such as F40T12 Red or  Green or Blue are awesome...

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Feb 14, 2018 at 11:45 PM Author: suzukir122
Me as well! And those ballasts have 450ocv supposedly, and they're high power factor... those F54T5 HO lamps would be really
bright... I think lol

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Feb 15, 2018 at 08:26 AM Author: Powergroove
It amazes me the number of people that actually think a T5 or a T8 would be an upgrade. Tube diameter alone does not make a better lamp. Why does the government not allow manufactures to produce 4 lamp instant start ballast for F40??? Because it does not fit their agenda. Read electric discharge lamps by John Weymouth. Power loading not tube diameter makes the lamp more efficient. The lamp engineers of the 60's, 70's and 80's were actually engineers. Today's engineers only have a piece of paper from a college or university.

Keep government out of the lighting industry.

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