Author Topic: Have you converted your house?  (Read 54534 times)
Medved
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #45 on: May 26, 2016, 01:31:07 AM » Author: Medved
OIt is true, the systems I'm familiar with are not primarily designed to be the prime and only heating in the house, but rather a cooling devices for the (few) hot summer weeks, the heating there being just a bonus, the main heating here is usually gas or solid fuel. Usually the heat function is used as main heating, because even when the electricity is abouttwice as expensive to the gas for the same energy, the efficiency of the heat pump makes it cheaper and this savings usually cover the extra energy the air condition consumes during the summer (compare to the most common house without any airco at all, the climate here does not really require it, it is just an item of luxury). But even when the units are mainly designed as coolers, their users haven't turn the gas heaters ON even when we have here winters with -10degC 24 hour average...
The stroonger wind is actually helping the compressor - it makes the temperature difference between the evaporator and the external environment even lower, but it would require better house insulation to make the heatpump power sufficient...
But generally what I may compare with the places I've visited in the US (Pocatello area in Idaho, so not that warm part), the house insulation standard (well, today that is already way short for the legal minimum for new houses) here are way higher than what I've seen in the US, so it could be the heat requirements in the US are way higher than I'm used to. Plus the house construction here offers very high amount of thermal inertia mass. So just utilizing the day vs night temperature differences makes the windows just a sufficient equipment to maintain the comfortable temperature over a big part of the year...
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wattMaster
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #46 on: May 26, 2016, 07:23:52 AM » Author: wattMaster
How hot are your summers? It's only spring and it's getting to 107 F (42 C) outside.
I also have an idea of what winters feel like because I traveled to Belgium once in early winter.
Another funny thing that happens is everywhere you go, You can't avoid Air Conditioning companies.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 07:27:34 AM by wattMaster » Logged

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Medved
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #47 on: May 26, 2016, 06:02:23 PM » Author: Medved
How hot are your summers? It's only spring and it's getting to 107 F (42 C) outside.
Just few weeks above 30degC daily peaks, the minimum very rarely does not drop below 27degC for at least few hours. That is not that long and not that hot to not stand it without any cooling than an open window at night...
Of course, you have to be careful to not let the heat in during the day (so keep the windows and doors closed), the ventilation during the day is a bit problematic... But for the rather short time it is bearable...
Of course, an airco brings way more comfort, mainly by allowing you to "flush" the air even during the day, but it is really not any must or so.

By the way I'm looking for some "swamp cooler" - mainly where to find some good evaporation mat (for the portable units, which do not need any ventilation and because the hot days are dry, it could be good enough with way cheaper operation; they usually contain just some cloth joke, which is too thin to really evaporate any significant amount of water to really cool something down)

I also have an idea of what winters feel like because I traveled to Belgium once in early winter.

I would guess the average temperature would be abut the same, but larger differences (both day vs night, as well as winter vs summer; well, we are a continental country and some 100's m higher above the sea level)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 06:06:12 PM by Medved » Logged

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wattMaster
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #48 on: May 26, 2016, 08:33:50 PM » Author: wattMaster
By the way I'm looking for some "swamp cooler" - mainly where to find some good evaporation mat (for the portable units, which do not need any ventilation and because the hot days are dry, it could be good enough with way cheaper operation; they usually contain just some cloth joke, which is too thin to really evaporate any significant amount of water to really cool something down)
I don't know where to get them, But
you can go here: http://www.portacool.com/
The local metal processing plant has one of these, and it seems to do well.
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Ash
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #49 on: May 27, 2016, 06:31:00 PM » Author: Ash
The big appliances in my home are :

Air conditioning 2.5KW

Water heater 2.5KW

Space heater 3KW (normally used at only 1KW)

Kettle 2KW

Washing machine 1.5KW

Other homes have also dryers (~2KW) and sometimes instant water heaters (~5.5KW)



Thing is :

 - You never run all the loads at the same time at their max power level continuously. Sometimes you can have overload, but short term (less than 1 min to run the microwave or use the hot water)

 - Breakers dont trip immediately. You can overload them for short time without tripping - 40A from 32A breaker for couple minutes

 - Inrush currents are not accounted for in the breaker ratings, exactly because the breakers dont trip for overload the second a motor starts. The air conditioning unit for example takes about 80A..100A inrush at switch on, but it does not trip the C16A breaker it is connected to, and not the C32 main either



Breakers here (European style breakers) are sized in standard ratings that go like : 6 10 16 20 25 32 40 50 63 80 100

About 30..40 years back we had also 15A breakers, those were made locally by 1 manufacturer and it was not a standard rating

Common sizes used :

 - 10A for small circuits (lighting, single receptacles with low expected load

 - 16A for most home circuits, sometimes for appliances like water heaters and air conditioning in the 2.5KW range

 - 20A 25A for loads in the 3KW..3.5KW range, and for 5.5KW water heaters

 - 3x16A for big air conditioning units

 - 1x25A main in old homes (up to early 80s)

 - 1x32A main in late 80s/early 90s homes (like mine)

 - 1x40A main in late 90s homes and up

 - 3x25A main in big homes

 - 3x40A main in big homes with more loads



Isolation breakdown and breakers not tripping :

One problem for the US is the type of breakers used :

Here, common breakers used in homes are what is called by European standards type C - Trip immediately at 5x..10x nominal current. That is, 16A breaker for a room will trip immediately at currents of 80A..160A. In circuits with no big inrush currents, type B can be used - Trip immediately at 3x..5x nominal current. 16A breaker will trip immediately at 48A..80A

In the US, common breakers used in homes are equivalent to our type D - Trip immediately at 10x..20x nominal current. That is, 15A breaker will take 150A..300A to trip - Nobody guarantees so high short circuit currents, especially with the voltage lower in half

And then they try to sort out the problem by using arc fault breakers that are supposed to detect the isolation breakdown arcing by the waveforem - Expensive and unreliable electronics forced down to everyone through the NEC (as the manufacturers want), instead of using plain simple magnetic breakers of more decent immediate trip values....



But the best story was behind the iron curtain, with the Bulgarian made AE 1031 breakers (common through the Soviet Union and now Russia in homes built up to early 90s). Those had no magnetic trip at all. Even with a hard short circuit, they would take some quick moment to heat up before tripping. Such breakers would obviously have no chance of tripping for an isolation breakdown - The conductor at the place of arcing would melt away and break the circuit before the breaker trips

Speaking of the Soviet Union/Russia, houses there are getting permanent hot water and steam for space heating supplied from the city. The hot water is supplied in a sorta loop pipe, and being pumped through it continuously by the city - so the water in the pipe stays hot right up to the entry of the pipe to the house, and in 5-floor city buildings right up to the tap, even if nobody is using the water at the moment. When you open the water you dont have to flush long line of cold water before the hot arrives

So the list of high current appliances there is way shorter than here. It is not uncommon that the main breaker for an older house is 1x16A, and everyone is fine with that - As the only loads it sees is lighting, electronics, and the occasional microwave...
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #50 on: May 27, 2016, 07:34:53 PM » Author: Solanaceae
What in the world is 6a used for? The lowest amp rating here I've seen in a breaker is 10. I've seen stuff like 6.5 and oddball screw fuses specifically for motor.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #51 on: May 27, 2016, 07:57:44 PM » Author: Ash
Actually the range goes all the way down to 0.5A. The smallest breakers are most commonly used in control circuits where the only loads are relays and electronic modules, or in equipment - like for motors. I seen lanterns that have 3A breaker built in

6A is not as little as it appears.. 230V * 6A = 1380VA. Ok for breaker for a lighting only circuit like separate circuit for outdoor lights
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #52 on: May 27, 2016, 08:17:10 PM » Author: Solanaceae
Wait, I meant to say 15 lol. And I've seen garbage disposals in sinks with their own breakers too.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #53 on: May 28, 2016, 10:04:43 AM » Author: wattMaster
And the main breaker panel (Outside) connects to 3 indoor panels, The one for most of the indoor plugs, lighting, and cooking, The Pool Panel, Which also controls an outlet, And the Air Conditioner/Attic Panel.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #54 on: May 28, 2016, 03:32:34 PM » Author: Ash
In the 70s we moved from fuses to breakers. The standard rating for the fuses was 15A. This manufacturer made a breaker for those who wanted to keep the same rating as the original fuse. In practice there is no difference in application between the 15A and 16A breakers

One reason why the problem rised up was, that in the 70s it was common to wire 15A circuits with 1.5mm^2 wire (that is between 15 and 16 AWG). This was bad choice in the 1st place - Connections were failing at high loads. But at the time it was considered acceptable and bad connections were blamed for the failures. There was a claim that using 1A higher breaker on that wiring would be really too much - allthough it is really small difference, and in reality often 16A breakers (from other manufacturers) were used and it was no worse than with 15A

About the connections, in the 70s and 80s there was transition from wire nuts to Euro terminals. With the wire nuts the connection is great if you do it right, but it is fairly easy to mess it if you have no clue wat you are doing. With the Euro terminals it looks like some sparks became too confident as they appeared easy to use (compared to the wire nuts), and were making bad connections because they were not tightening them properly..
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #55 on: May 28, 2016, 04:37:07 PM » Author: wattMaster
In the 70s we moved from fuses to breakers. The standard rating for the fuses was 15A. This manufacturer made a breaker for those who wanted to keep the same rating as the original fuse. In practice there is no difference in application between the 15A and 16A breakers

One reason why the problem rised up was, that in the 70s it was common to wire 15A circuits with 1.5mm^2 wire (that is between 15 and 16 AWG). This was bad choice in the 1st place - Connections were failing at high loads. But at the time it was considered acceptable and bad connections were blamed for the failures. There was a claim that using 1A higher breaker on that wiring would be really too much - allthough it is really small difference, and in reality often 16A breakers (from other manufacturers) were used and it was no worse than with 15A

About the connections, in the 70s and 80s there was transition from wire nuts to Euro terminals. With the wire nuts the connection is great if you do it right, but it is fairly easy to mess it if you have no clue wat you are doing. With the Euro terminals it looks like some sparks became too confident as they appeared easy to use (compared to the wire nuts), and were making bad connections because they were not tightening them properly..
Why not use bigger wires?
Everyone here uses wire nuts, and I have never heard of Euro Terminals.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #56 on: May 28, 2016, 05:24:17 PM » Author: hannahs lights
In the UK most houses are fed by a 100 amp single phase supply occasianaly its only an 80 amp service for smaller homes. Individual circuits are 5 amp lighting 15 amp for fixed heating and single sockets 30 amp for ring mains and cookers if breakers are used its 6 16 and 32 amp as in Europe also if you want extra sockets just extend the ring main or wire a radial circuit for a double socket fused at 20 amps. Don't forget our plugs have there own individual fuses of 3 ,5 or 13 amps I will give more information if you want
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #57 on: May 28, 2016, 05:29:34 PM » Author: wattMaster
In the UK most houses are fed by a 100 amp single phase supply occasianaly its only an 80 amp service for smaller homes. Individual circuits are 5 amp lighting 15 amp for fixed heating and single sockets 30 amp for ring mains and cookers if breakers are used its 6 16 and 32 amp as in Europe also if you want extra sockets just extend the ring main or wire a radial circuit for a double socket fused at 20 amps. Don't forget our plugs have there own individual fuses of 3 ,5 or 13 amps I will give more information if you want
Here, Fuses are only found in high power DC applications, and is never found in plugs except the specialty "Safety" plugs.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #58 on: May 28, 2016, 06:23:17 PM » Author: Ash
In the 90s bigger wires became the norm, with code demanding 1.5mm^2 for 10A (no more for 16A) and 2.5mm^2 (between 13 and 14 AWG) for 16A. It appears that old 1.5mm^2 wiring survives fairly enough if the connections are done right though

Here older systems were done with wire nuts and newer with Euro terminals. Places built in the 70s/80s could be both, with more wire nuts in the 70s and more Euro terminals in the 80s. Euro terminals appear to be easier to use so give more confidence to the user, but it is about as easy to do a good job or a bad job with either type of connector

In the 80s we had a small appearance of Wagos but they did not become common. In recent years there is again appearance of Wagos (and Wago clones), this time more extensive, but they are still quite uncommon. I like Wagos but i consider them as apporopriate only for small currents - like in home lighting circuits, not for a circuit with receptacles on it



In UK the fuses in the plugs became required because of the high current capable ring :

 - C32 breaker takes between 160A and 320A to trip immediately, and some small portable lamp short circuiting might never reach those currents, so there is the problem of "its arcing and shorting and the breaker is not tripping". With 16A breakers its not a problem

 - The plugs theselfes cant handle safely 32A (the UK "13A" plug can really withstand way more than 13A, but not 32A). So there is need for some protection when an appliance is overloading the plug, like a partially shorted heater or a plug that was wired to too powerfull appliance (that was intended for hardwired connection). In Europe the breaker is only 16A, so plugs (even 10A rated ones) still handle it fairly safely. 2.5A 2-pin plugs on thin 0.75^2 wire are used mostly on applinces that are unlikely to draw continuously more than 2.5A - Either electronics with a <2.5A fuse inside, or things like lamps with predictable failure modes that cant overload the plug/cable continuously
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #59 on: May 28, 2016, 07:31:08 PM » Author: wattMaster
Wow, It's so confusing.
We just have breakers usually in these sizes:
15A
20A
30A
45A
60A
75A
100A
150A
200A
And it's the same for 3 Phase.
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