Re: Kr-85 « Reply #46 on: September 06, 2016, 10:25:12 PM » Author: Medved
These tend to blacken way quicker, just because with the design no one cares about that. SO these will be way less efficient  in light generation. Plus their bulbs are rather big... What may help is to put a pair of blue LED's (antiparallel) with some ballasting resistor into the starter case. But then we are with increased complexity and it is a question, if using an electronic starter in the first place wouldn't be better idea... Plus I've seen descriptions of starter designs using some radioactive Nickel isotope instead of the Kr85...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 10:26:48 PM by Medved »		Logged

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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #47 on: September 06, 2016, 10:26:46 PM » Author: wattMaster
So it seems like electronic starters are good for low light areas.
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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #48 on: September 06, 2016, 11:43:28 PM » Author: dor123
Regarding to the requiring of a visible light to start a discharge, I had a strange experience yesterday with my ventral tracklight, that have a Philips Primavision ballast and Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence with the starting wire: After returning to my hostel from observing the lanterns, I tryed to turn it on, but it didn't turned on at all. After waiting some seconds, I decided to turn on my table/desk/computer lamp. At the moment I pressed the switch of the cable of my table/desk/computer lamp, and turned on the CFL, the metal halide lamp in my tracklight struck as well. This isn't the first time my lamp don't strikes immediately, but this was the first time it struck when I turned on another light that isn't connected to its electrical connection (Table lamp with a switch on a cable). Is this related to the fact that the Osram HQI-TS 70W WDL Excellence don't contains Kr-85?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 03:38:09 AM by dor123 »		Logged

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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #50 on: September 07, 2016, 02:43:39 AM » Author: Medved
Quote from: Ash on September 07, 2016, 02:06:27 AM What in the design of starters makes them blacken more ? The question is rather the opposite: What makes the the indicator bulbs to blacken less? The answer is a special electrode material and treatment. With starters the main functionality is in forming the voltage controlled timer switch, not a light source. So the materials are optimized to work better as reliable contact, with the voltage exactly under control. It even undergoes some kind of high current discharge treatment, which is supposed to sputter off the surface layer and by that makes the voltage parameters way more predictable and stable. And this step itself leaves the bulb already heavily blackened... (Well, writing this gave me an idea: I may try that with some signal lamps, if it help them to work better as the counter bulbs; but I will have to find back more details...)
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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #51 on: September 07, 2016, 03:43:07 AM » Author: dor123
@Ash: I turned on my Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence in my tracklight at an almost complete darkness (Only the LCD display of my computer and my amber LED nightlight operated), and the lamp struck only as soon as I turned on my Philips Tornado 23W/865 CFL in my table/desk/computer lamp. This lamp don't have Kr-85 in the arctube, since there is a starting wire around the arctube. I think the same reason causes my hostel Osram HQI-TS 150W/NDL Excellence in the floodlight outside, to flash wildly during startup, before lighting steadily, as the other lightsources nearby, are cheap preheat/switchstart two PL wallpacks.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 11:22:53 AM by dor123 »		Logged

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Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #53 on: September 07, 2016, 08:25:27 PM » Author: wattMaster
Is it possible to have a high enough voltage so you don't need Kr-85?
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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #54 on: September 08, 2016, 12:34:56 AM » Author: dor123
@Ash: Only at the dark, when only the ameber LED night light and the computer screen and the light from the lighting outside present in my room, the tracklight doing these problems. But if there is some light from my table lamp or my 21W T5 fixture, or during the time there is still natural daylight outside, the floodlight strikes immediately without problems. The Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence used in my tracklight, don't contains Kr-85 in the arctube, hence the starting wire around the arctube.
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #55 on: September 08, 2016, 01:32:28 AM » Author: Medved
Quote from: wattMaster on September 07, 2016, 08:25:27 PM Is it possible to have a high enough voltage so you don't need Kr-85? With the lamp yes, but it won't be compatible with the industry standard ignitors and maybe even sockets and wiring. Very frequent trick is to put a small capacitive coupled discharge bottle, which suffices with way lower voltages even at dark (but needs fast pulses), then generates some light (or even UV) acting as the electron emitting primer for the main arctube. With the starters no. Because there you need primarily the trigger voltage threshold to be within as tight tolerances as possible. And without any priming help (like light and/or radioactivity) it becomes very hard.
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	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #56 on: September 08, 2016, 08:06:28 AM » Author: dor123
Quote from: dor123 on September 08, 2016, 12:34:56 AM @Ash: Only at the dark, when only the ameber LED night light and the computer screen and the light from the lighting outside present in my room, the tracklight doing these problems. But if there is some light from my table lamp or my 21W T5 fixture, or during the time there is still natural daylight outside, the floodlight strikes immediately without problems. The Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence used in my tracklight, don't contains Kr-85 in the arctube, hence the starting wire around the arctube. I did an expiriment now: 1. I darkened my room, all of the windows shutters down and my computer screen turned off and all other lights turned off (Only the LEDs on my cable modem/router and my speakers operated). 2. Flipped the switch of my tracklight, not turning on at all. Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence don't show any sign of life. 3. Rised the shutter of one of my two windows in my room: The lamp struck immediately, and runs-up to full brightness. Video of the expiriment in HD .
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 08:21:40 AM by dor123 »		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Kr-85 « Reply #58 on: September 08, 2016, 10:18:38 AM » Author: dor123
There are barely light leaks in the sutters. I couldn't see anything inside my room. The lamp sometimes, strikes even at that darkness when I returned from lantern observing, but it took much longer time to strike, than when I turns it on when there is light (Natural or artificial) in my room. If you look closely at the floodlight, at the moment I opened the shutter, you can see that the main discharge in this case don't appears immediately, but the argon starting gas glow discharge appears for 3 secs before than. The fact that the argon glow discharge didn't appeared at all when my room was dark, meaned that there was no enough light to ionise the argon inside the arctube, and the only reason for this, is the lack of the Kr-85 inside the arctube.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 10:57:14 AM by dor123 »		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.