Lighting-Gallery.net
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Desultory13 on March 21, 2021, 03:44:42 PM
-
As an electrician of 18 years I have noticed a constant and disturbing trend here of wiring various components together for experimental purposes for mismatched HID lamps and ballasts.
While I certainly won't mention names and sometimes such experiments can be fun and interesting.
But lets be realistic.
First off these experiments are not necessarily safe and are total violations as far as the electrical codes are concerned.
They can not be trusted for permanent installations.
Also none of these experimental lights would ever be wired this way in the field.
There's also a liability issue.
If a fire was ever traced to one of these so-called experiments you could easily be held responsible.
Electricians spend 4 years at the minimum learning how to properly install safe lighting.
If want to spend your days installing some amazing HID displays by all means take a course.
If you want to continue such risky experiments ideally they shouldn't be posted where someone could try one with disastrous consequences.
HID lamps and ballasts are coded for a reason. They are not intended to be mixed or altered.
Just remember
There are old electricians
And
There are bold electricians
But
There are NO OLD and BOLD electricians!
Well I've said my piece, like me or hate me I just felt that it's my job as an electrician to let everyone know that experimenting with HID lighting can be a dangerous hobby.
-
Agreed 100%. Let's keep safe here, folks :-* :love:
-
That's just what I was saying, I don't have a professional qualification like you do, but like Ria I do have decades of experience round what is safe and what is not. :bulbman:
-
As Ria said, i agree! :love: 8)
While a few things i do are a little unsafe being 15 and wiring up lamps and stuff, i try to follow local code for safety, especially when I'm doing a permanent project. Going to try and get more knowledgeable when i become an electrician so i can do thing safe. :police:
-
All jokes aside Max, I'm sure you'll make a great electrician :love:
-
All jokes aside Max, I'm sure you'll make a great electrician :love:
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
you made me blush there.
But thank you, i have already installed some undercabinet lights and this summer I'm changing out a ceiling fan so I'm slowly getting into more complicated stuff. ;D
-
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
you made me blush there.
But thank you, i have already installed some undercabinet lights and this summer I'm changing out a ceiling fan so I'm slowly getting into more complicated stuff. ;D
With ceiling fans always make sure to use a fan rated box and that it is securely mounted to the ceiling framing. Also if the fan has a light, don't mix up the wires. You don't want the light rotating and the fan not moving! :lol:
-
Agreed, while I do occasionally do some experimentation, and doing simple ballast substitutions that have been tested by multiple people on here. It's another thing to openly suggest to novice members to run a lamp using a combination of ballasts that you yourself haven't even tested yet. There's just too much that could go wrong, the novice member could miswire the circuit, they could mix ballasts with a different phase (ie HX with CWA), or the combination just could simply not work as you never tested it yourself.
Liability is another thing too, if something goes wrong, who ends up being liable when something happens. I agree people should take responsibly and not just blindly follow advice on here sometimes but it still puts the site in a bad light if something were to happen.
-
Agreed, while I do occasionally do some experimentation, and doing simple ballast substitutions that have been tested by multiple people on here. It's another thing to openly suggest to novice members to run a lamp using a combination of ballasts that you yourself haven't even tested yet. There's just too much that could go wrong, the novice member could miswire the circuit, they could mix ballasts with a different phase (ie HX with CWA), or the combination just could simply not work as you never tested it yourself.
Liability is another thing too, if something goes wrong, who ends up being liable when something happens. I agree people should take responsibly and not just blindly follow advice on here sometimes but it still puts the site in a bad light if something were to happen.
Which is precisely the point I was trying desperately to make.
-
Electrical code / regulations, call it what you want is mostly common sense... :wndr:
Sadly common sense isn't that common, so we need to have it written down and follow it.!
-
I'm just saying this one more time.
I see absolutely no logic in mismatching electrical components for so-called experiments.
The codes are there for a reason to protect life and property.
They are written from years of experience and those who earn an honest living in this trade trying to adhere to these regulations should not have to spend their valuable time having to fix substandard installations just because people feel that they are unecessary.
I've spent years learning to make sure that I'm doing quality work and providing safe installations for my customers and because the codes change every 3 years I'm always learning, trying to stay on top of the changes.
Equipment is engineered for specific uses and there is no reason to defeat it's purpose by engaging in so-called experiments.
I'm sorry to hear that LG allows possible unsafe setups to be posted.
I just don't understand why is it so difficult to use the proper lamps and gear for which they are designed.
-
With ceiling fans always make sure to use a fan rated box and that it is securely mounted to the ceiling framing. Also if the fan has a light, don't mix up the wires. You don't want the light rotating and the fan not moving! :lol:
There is a fan already there, my great grandpa installed the thing 30 years ago and the light kit died a few months back. I remember seeing a spare one in the garage but am not sure, will have to ache I if I can just swap it.
Having the blades glow could be an interesting idea.... :mrg: :lol:
-
...I just don't understand why is it so difficult to use the proper lamps and gear for which they are designed.
Nor can we, which is why we invested in a 400W US spec inverter so we could run US lamps on US ballasts which we imported. :btclrbnder:
-
I just don't understand why is it so difficult to use the proper lamps and gear for which they are designed.
Sometimes the correct gear is no longer available (e.g., 200W SLI/H), so a suitable substitute must be used.
-
Sometimes the correct gear is no longer available (e.g., 200W SLI/H), so a suitable substitute must be used.
There are always exceptions to any rule. But they are rare, and when such substitutions are made, all efforts must be taken to ensure no-one is at any risk. If there is the slightest doubt, don't do it, even if it means not lighting that rare lamp. In any case, you wouldn't want to destroy a lamp you'd waited years to acquire and may never find again, would you..?
-
There are always exceptions to any rule. But they are rare, and when such substitutions are made, all efforts must be taken to ensure no-one is at any risk. If there is the slightest doubt, don't do it, even if it means not lighting that rare lamp. In any case, you wouldn't want to destroy a lamp you'd waited years to acquire and may never find again, would you..?
By suitable, I mean the replacement still allows the bulb to run at the correct voltage and current (or something very close to it).
That being said, you do make a good point on not destroying a rare bulb by running it on gear that horrendously overdrives it.
-
I agree, just do your research, ask around, someone has been there before you.
-
There are always exceptions to any rule. But they are rare, and when such substitutions are made, all efforts must be taken to ensure no-one is at any risk. If there is the slightest doubt, don't do it, even if it means not lighting that rare lamp. In any case, you wouldn't want to destroy a lamp you'd waited years to acquire and may never find again, would you..?
Yeah that's about all there is to it. Hands down no BS. Without the proper gear it just don't get lit. There's just no excuse for destroying that rare one of a kind lamp simply because you saw it done elsewhere.
-
Even with the proper gear I have always been gun-shy about lighting up my rare lamps. You never know if over the many years if any air could have leaked in or if a little part dislodged setting the stage for a short-circuit inside the lamp, etc... :mv: :mvc: :hps:
-
Even with the proper gear I have always been gun-shy about lighting up my rare lamps. You never know if over the many years if any air could have leaked in or if a little part dislodged setting the stage for a short-circuit inside the lamp, etc... :mv: :mvc: :hps:
True that! :poof:
That’s why when my SLI/H bulb arrives, I’ll light it up once to check that it works, then put it into safe storage for preservation. ^_^
-
Even with the proper gear I have always been gun-shy about lighting up my rare lamps. You never know if over the many years if any air could have leaked in or if a little part dislodged setting the stage for a short-circuit inside the lamp, etc... :mv: :mvc: :hps:
I've always at least tried it. With incandescents it's relatively easy if you have a Variac. I just wind up the voltage very, very slowly until I see the filament just start to glow. If it seems ok, I'll increase voltage to about half way and then probably leave it at that if it's a very rare lamp like Barnaby (https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4632&pos=30&pid=188992). He's a special case though, so he won't be lit again, we've got a display case on order and he'll go in that when it gets here.
But if I've got the gear, I'll at least attempt to light it, whatever it is. To me, there's not a lot of point in having a lamp if you can't at least do that. I've always believed lamps were meant to be lit :bulbman:
-
Speaking of Barnaby, that’s one impressive find! I would LOVE to have a bulb like that one! :D :inc:
-
Speaking of Barnaby, that’s one impressive find! I would LOVE to have a bulb like that one! :D :inc:
It was totally unexpected; we met up with another collector to pick up some lamps we'd bought on eBay, and he kept rooting around in the back of his van saying "have you got one of these..?" "No" we'd reply, "do you want one..?" and this went on for ages until we'd amassed 75 lamps over and above the three we'd paid for ;D
We had to stop him in the end as we had no more room in our own vehicle :lol:
-
I've always at least tried it. With incandescents it's relatively easy if you have a Variac. I just wind up the voltage very, very slowly until I see the filament just start to glow. If it seems ok, I'll increase voltage to about half way and then probably leave it at that if it's a very rare lamp like Barnaby (https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4632&pos=30&pid=188992). He's a special case though, so he won't be lit again, we've got a display case on order and he'll go in that when it gets here.
But if I've got the gear, I'll at least attempt to light it, whatever it is. To me, there's not a lot of point in having a lamp if you can't at least do that. I've always believed lamps were meant to be lit :bulbman:
Another inherent danger facing rare lamps (and any others for that matter that we have) is handling them. That is exactly how they can easily break or get damaged. And as I look back, I have lost a few medium rare lamps on account of them slipping out of my hands, rolling off a table, hitting another bulb in a storage carton, etc, etc. When this happens the disaster seems to be over before we know what has happened. So, I AVOID moving my good and respected lamps around because of prior misfortunes. Even being as very careful (as I am) these things can and still can happen. Most of my lamps are displayed on wall shelves and I leave them right there, period.
-
Same here. I always use cotton gloves when handling any lamp, even if they don't strictly need it. It's for two reasons; one I don't like fingerprints on glass and two it's just in case a lamp does need special handling and I forget. If I always do things the same way, then it's less likely I'll make a mistake. I treat every lamp as rare, even if it's a common household incandescent.
We're still in the process of fitting shelves and things, it's a work in progress. We don't have a lot of space here, so it's difficult :-\
-
I've always at least tried it. With incandescents it's relatively easy if you have a Variac. I just wind up the voltage very, very slowly until I see the filament just start to glow. If it seems ok, I'll increase voltage to about half way and then probably leave it at that if it's a very rare lamp like Barnaby (https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4632&pos=30&pid=188992). He's a special case though, so he won't be lit again, we've got a display case on order and he'll go in that when it gets here.
But if I've got the gear, I'll at least attempt to light it, whatever it is. To me, there's not a lot of point in having a lamp if you can't at least do that. I've always believed lamps were meant to be lit :bulbman:
MVs can be brought to a nice glow using a transformer from a bug zapper. The 4kv going into the lamp is only at 15ma maximum ... but still be very careful unless you are on those UL-approved rubber pills. ;D By applying this high-voltage low-current energy, you are simply illuminating the argon in the arc tube (this is the starting gas). Albeit, the lamp will not illuminate very brightly but the effect is quite nice. It will not glow any brighter than from when you first applied power to it. I have not tried this yet on MH or HPS lamps. Also I have not seen any high voltage arcing between metallic points inside the bulb that are close together.
:mvc: :bumh: :hps: :lps: :mv:
<Admin edit - quotes fixed>
-
MVs can be brought to a nice glow using a transformer from a bug zapper. The 4kv going into the lamp is only at 15ma maximum ... but still be very careful unless you are on those UL-approved rubber pills. ;D By applying this high-voltage low-current energy, you are simply illuminating the argon in the arc tube (this is the starting gas). Albeit, the lamp will not illuminate very brightly but the effect is quite nice. It will not glow any brighter than from when you first applied power to it. I have not tried this yet on MH or HPS lamps. Also I have not seen any high voltage arcing between metallic points inside the bulb that are close together.
:mvc: :bumh: :hps: :lps: :mv:
I use this (https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4720&pos=28&pid=171650) to check discharge lamps, all it really does is check vacuum, but it does light up the arc tube quite nicely on most lamps.
-
I use this (https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4720&pos=28&pid=171650) to check discharge lamps, all it really does is check vacuum, but it does light up the arc tube quite nicely on most lamps.
I have never seen one of those, what a cool device!
Would make for a dandy Holiday gift too for HID lovers like myself :D
-
I got it on UK eBay quite cheap as it was second hand, but try here (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=martindale+lamp+tester&_sacat=0).
Edit - here (https://martindale-electric.co.uk/product/fl30-lamp-tester/) is the manufacturer's site, quite a good price there, too.
-
Same here. I always use cotton gloves when handling any lamp, even if they don't strictly need it. It's for two reasons; one I don't like fingerprints on glass and two it's just in case a lamp does need special handling and I forget. If I always do things the same way, then it's less likely I'll make a mistake. I treat every lamp as rare, even if it's a common household incandescent.
We're still in the process of fitting shelves and things, it's a work in progress. We don't have a lot of space here, so it's difficult :-\
I forgot to mention about the fingerprints on the glass bulbs. To me it is annoying unless it happens to have been burned in by the installer decades ago. :laugh: Other than that, the best way to remove oily fingerprints (I am sure many of you know this anyway... is to carefully swipe the affected area with a kleenex having some isopropyl alcohol on it. Always be sure to keep away from the etch! Yes, wearing light cotton gloves while lamp handling sounds like a great idea. I think they help with getting a better and more solid grip on the bulb and-or base. :mvc: :bumh: :mvblb: :emh: :hps: :lps: :inc:
-
I have a big bottle of isopropyl alcohol right here for that very purpose, you just have to stay clear of the etch, as I found out the hard way :-\
-
I got it on UK eBay quite cheap as it was second hand, but try here (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=martindale+lamp+tester&_sacat=0).
Edit - here (https://martindale-electric.co.uk/product/fl30-lamp-tester/) is the manufacturer's site, quite a good price there, too.
Neat! Thanks for the link. I am going to save up and buy myself one of these cool toys :)
-
For quite a while isopropyl alcohol was one of those things around here you could not find on the store shelves... like toilet paper. It (the isopropyl) has a lot of uses, I add a dash into my bottle of handwashing soap after I first open it for added virus-killing strength. :)
-
I typically don't worry handling lamps with my bare hands, I only time I'm concerned about fingerprints is if I'm handling a halogen capsule, or handling a any clear lamps (such as candelabras or HIDs). I don't own anything rare so I'm not too concerned. When I clean lamps, I use a dry rag.
In regards to ballasts, the bottom line is just simply use the correct lamps with the correct gear. Simple as pie.
-
Like I said, I got into the habit a long time ago. I don't like fingerprints on glass, and it's just the way I've always done it.
-
Any lamp with a quartz outer like halogen and certain CMH lamps, I try to avoid touching and if touched I'll give it a clean with some isopropyl alcohol. As for regular lamps, no special concern but it they get too dirty or covered in fingerprints I'll clean them using the same method. Same goes for any new lamp I get that's dirty.
Just gotta be careful cleaning near the etch as some etches can rub off with isopropyl alcohol. I've been gentle around the etches and haven't really had any issues though.
-
With ceiling fans always make sure to use a fan rated box and that it is securely mounted to the ceiling framing. Also if the fan has a light, don't mix up the wires. You don't want the light rotating and the fan not moving! :lol:
:lol: :lol:
I don't think that a spinning light kit is possible if you wire the fan improperly. The light kit would spin if the motor detached from the shaft, making the motor sit on the lower shell of the motor housing. Here's a link (https://youtu.be/lUZ42b15zmE).
-
:lol: :lol:
I don't think that a spinning light kit is possible if you wire the fan improperly. The light kit would spin if the motor detached from the shaft, making the motor sit on the lower shell of the motor housing. Here's a link (https://youtu.be/lUZ42b15zmE).
I’ve seen that video before. I still have to wonder how someone can screw up a ceiling fan so badly... :lol: ::)
-
I’ve seen that video before. I still have to wonder how someone can screw up a ceiling fan so badly... :lol: ::)
I don't think that it was their fault. It was probably a defect.
-
I don't think that it was their fault. It was probably a defect.
I still wonder how that happens, regardless of who screwed up! :P :lol:
-
:lol: :lol:
I don't think that a spinning light kit is possible if you wire the fan improperly. The light kit would spin if the motor detached from the shaft, making the motor sit on the lower shell of the motor housing. Here's a link (https://youtu.be/lUZ42b15zmE).
Yep! That's the video I was joking about! I just couldn't remember how to find it. :lol: