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Lamps => Modern => Topic started by: wattMaster on April 10, 2016, 09:54:19 AM

Title: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 10, 2016, 09:54:19 AM
We have buying LED bulbs for a while, The oldest is about 2-3 years old, And still looks bright!
Our whole house is mostly LED Feit electric bulbs.
The only fixtures I have not converted is the laundry light, Shed "Shop light", Desk light, Bathroom light above toilet (Which is an Incandescent bulb and has been going about 3 hours a day, But has been there for 10+ Years), Outdoor flood lights (We actually have started converting one bulb to LED), Attic light, A couple lights in the living room (Incandescent 3 Way), And 2 Bedrooms
(First has a lone fluorescent, Always pretty dim, The second has 3, 50 Watt halogen GU10 bulbs, Also been going for 10+ Years but at about 6 Hours a day).

All of our LED bulbs have been going strong for a while, Even though the thermal conditions are not prime(Hot Florida weather, lots of windows, And out of the way of Air Conditioning).

We are used to LED lighting, And everyone except me can't handle daylight lighting, Unless it's sunlight. :)
We have a No-CFL rule in our house, Unless they are kept in their boxes and in a safe place (My light bulb stash).

Have you converted your house to LED? Just don't use the cheap Ebay bulbs.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: HU112 on April 10, 2016, 11:24:00 AM
Conversion in progress, but not to LED. :D
My room:
Past: 1xE27 ceiling fixture, fitted with a Megaman WL130 cool daylight CFL
Now: 1x Fitzgerald LPFH220X 2x20W switch start fitting

Parent's room:
Past: 1xE27 ceiling fixture, fitted with a Philips 12W warm white spiral CFL
Now: (planned) 1x Thorn Diamond CD 21W 2D melt light / no name 22W T9 Circline fitting

Toilet:
Past: 1xE27 ceiling socket, fitted with a Osram Duluxstar 23W/840 CFL
Now: 2x Philips FBH032 2xPL18W recessed ceiling light

Kitchen:
Past: 1xB22 ceiling socket, fitted with an unknown daylight CFL
Now: a 4ft no-name flat style switch start fitting

Undercabinet light:
Past: generic brand 13W T5 electronic IS fixture
Now: GE Flat113 13W T5 switch start fitting + Fitzgerald MLP8 8W T5 switch start fitting
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: RyanF40T12 on April 10, 2016, 01:28:22 PM
I live at home with my dear sweet old mother who is a widow and in her early 70s. Her eye sight is dimming a bit as is normal as we get older.  I started an LED conversion project at the house, using mostly Feit Electric LED stuff I've purhcased at Costco, Home Depot, and Ace, when they are on sale.  I also have a few GE and Philips LED products. 

Bathrooms:  (3 total)
Vanity lights.  You know, those 6 or 7 little globe lights above the mirror? 

Guest bathroom- I've converted over to LED globes, and also replaced the light switch with that of a dimmer.  These suckers are bright, 60 watt replacements and they really light up the place nicely.

Master Bathroom-  Toilet stall/room I replaced the ugly cheapie mushroom looking fixture and put in an LED fixture, with dimmer.  Looks good.  Closet- Leaving fluorescent.  F32T8.  Going to change the ballast out from Instant Start to programmed start, and put in 2 new 3500k tubes.   Over Jacuzzi Tub-  Single recessed fixture, retrofitted from screw in single bulb to a Feit Electric retrofit flood kit.  Very nice output, it is on the same dimmer switch as the vanity mirror fixtures over the sings.  As for those fixtures-  I am currently running all clear 40 watt vanity incandescent bulbs, letting those burn out, then replacing with LED vanity bulbs.  1 so far. 

Downstairs bathroom (mine) Recessed fixture above the shower/bathtub, with a 60 watt LED bulb from Philips or GE.. I forgot.. does just fine.  Above the sink/vanity-  CFL vanity bulbs that I am running to EoL and replacing out with LEDs and will eventually add a dimmer, if I can find one for the type of switch I have once all are over to LED. 

Master Bedroom table lamps-  All LED, including a 3-way LED.  Ceiling Fan lights-  still 100W rough duty incandescent bulbs on a dimmer.  Will convert over to LEDs once the prices of 100W LED replacements come down. 

Kitchen, hallway, stairs, basement family room- LED flood lights.  Mixture of screw in LED floods which came out last year, and also retrofit kits.  Still 2 rooms, including my bedroom left to convert over to LED floods. 

Guest bedroom-  Combination LED/CFL table lamps. 

Garage-  ceiling mounted 4-tube high output F32T8 strip with very bright tubes. Also with a pull string, and wired to the main light switch  Also for the old traditional screw-in general fixture/socket-  I have a "T" with CFL floodlights, attached to pull string as well, tied into the main switch.  So I can either use the overhead fluorescent when I need super bright, or if at night and I don't need super bright and don't want to have night blindness issues, I can shut off the fluorescents and kick in the flood lights.   I also have 2 wall mounted F40T12 fixtures, one for each side of the garage, activated via pull string, I like using these at night when I don't need super bright white light from the high output ceiling mount.   Lastly I have a Feit Electric shop light above the work bench.  I like it.  It's right about 4100k. 

Laundry Room-  Single 2 lamp fluorescent fixture.  Going to swap out the instant start ballast with a programmed start and put in 2 new 3500 or 3000k tubes. 

Basement furnace room and food storage and general storage area-  All fluorescent.  F32T8.  3500K & one 4100K. 

Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on April 10, 2016, 02:21:24 PM
Converted all the way back in 2006 to CFLs in all the parents' old lanterns and chandeliers. Some 2700K some 6500K. They work well, last fairly long ( i think lamp replacement on average every 4..5 years) and give out good light

There are 2 cloches in the kitchen that were originally 200W linear Halogens. At some point in the early 2000s we had bad batch of lamps stocked in all shops that were burning up fast, and it looked like they got some BIG stocks of the bad lamps - i got fed up with replacing the lamps all the time and converted the lanterns to 150W Incandescents, with ceramic E27 sockets. In the 2006 conversion i replaced the Incandescents to CFLs. Nowadays they have lower wattage CFLs in that put out less light, and i added a 2x36W T8 Linear over the cabinets that gives the bulk of the light. I was thinking to convert the cloches to MH, but have not done anything about it)

My room and few "technical" places around the house are Fluorescent - T8 (18W or 36W Magnetic) or PL (11W Magnetic)

Outside was small low power Incandescent. At some point i disconnected the Incandescent (but it is still there) and put up a Mercury lantern in a different position. Its been there for many years but about a year ago i replaced it with HPS floodlight

Few places i did not convert - For example the stairs and small toilet, the lighting there is switched on rarely and for short times, the energy consumption there is so low that it does not make sense to use anything but Incandescent
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 10, 2016, 07:21:16 PM
Oh yes, The rarely used locations really deserve Incandescents.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: tolivac on April 11, 2016, 01:06:37 AM
The main use of LED for me is portable lights.Have many CFL's in place of incandscent lights-waiting for the CFLs to burn out-then replace with LED-I have one LED fridge light,though.When the other in the fridge goes,will use another LED bulb.Otherwise-HID.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: hannahs lights on April 11, 2016, 01:18:00 PM
Oooooh shame on you! Not one here and never will be mostly filament lamps except upstairs Hall is a 11 watt CFL just because it's difficult to reach to replace I have to stand on the hand rail that runs along our landing for that! The kitchen has a 6 foot 100 watt preheat flouro and my shack/workshop has 2x 36 watt preheats the rest are all filament lamps
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Lightingguy1994 on April 11, 2016, 03:50:36 PM
We use mostly philips LED lamps (the flat A19 ones) and T8 bulbs in fixtures, there is 2 40w globe incandescents in the bathroom until i find globe LED bulbs and a PL13w in the upstairs hallway which is on all night every night.

There is a 13w  'squat' CFL in the downstairs hallway light which is used rarely and is awaiting LED replacement and a 9w A19 CFL in the wall pack on the side of the house ( Only use it cause it starts up deep purple and warms up to full brightness, lasted 2 years with nightly use so far. MY shed has 2 basic wrap lights, one is still magnetic 2x F34T12 and the other is 2x F32T8 IS, both of which worked fine all winter
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: arcblue on April 12, 2016, 04:14:14 PM
I've slowly let them in. I started with flashlights & battery-powered incandescent lights (where LED is far superior to incandescent in terms of battery life, but sometimes the beam quality suffers). Then the refrigerator (though my new one has LEDs built-in). Then, MR16 and PAR20/30 uplights at mains voltage (with good results on light quality but have already had two failures). Lastly, I started upgrading 12V path lights (totally worth it) and the garage door opener bulbs replaced with Cree 4-flow daylight GLS lamps.

I'm going to keep my Philips Halogenas in the dining room as long as I can but when I run out of replacement lamps, I may consider filament-style clear LED GLS lamps.

No linear fluorescents are planned to be switched out to LED, ever. Most are preheat or magnetic rapid-start and have a lifetime of replacement lamps. Same with my outdoor & indoor HID fixtures and magnetic CFLs. The electronic CFLs may go to LED once they burn out and I've run out of replacement lamps.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: BlueHalide on April 12, 2016, 04:49:34 PM
My house uses several different technologies. Garage lighting is four single-lamp strips in tandem F32T8 Sylvania Skywhite 8000K. Living Room has two torchiere uplighters converted to M90, one being Philips CDM Mastercolor 100w 3000K, and one Sylvania Metalarc Pro Tech 100w 3000K, the room also has three LED 20w 3000K floodlight uplighters (behind TV and couch) for instant light. The hallways use recessed cans each with GX24q-4 base Sylvania Dulux 42w PL in color 827. Office uses two uplighters, M57 175w GE Multivapor lamps in RAB floods pointed at ceiling. Master bedroom uses four Sylvania dimmable 16w LED a-shape lamps, master bath and second bath uses the same lamps but in daylight 6500K. Laundry room uses the same Sylvania Dulux 42w PL recessed cans that are in the hallways. Basement currently has six medium base lampholders with 5x 65w daylight 5500K CFL's and one 38w Feit 5000K LED. All closets are 26w 3500K CFL's
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: mbulb146 on April 12, 2016, 06:17:31 PM
Cool, BlueHalide you have metal halide in your living room!  Are the torchieres regular halogen floor lamps converted to MH?

Matt
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: dor123 on April 13, 2016, 03:29:51 AM
I also have a MH lamp in my room at my hostel: http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-118819
The lamp is Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence Germany.
Currently I turning on the additional 21W T5 batten with an Osram FH 21W/840 HE T5 lamp, only when I turn off the floodlight, in order to reduce overlighting in my room, when the floodlight is on.
My desk/table/computer lamp currently have Osram Duluxstar 8W/827 CFL.
The lamp on my bed, which I turns it on before going asleep, and during awakening, is a NISKO one with Radium Relux 9W/840.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 13, 2016, 11:06:54 AM
I also have a MH lamp in my room at my hostel: http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-118819
The lamp is Osram HQI-TS 70W/WDL Excellence Germany.
Currently I turning on the additional 21W T5 batten with an Osram FH 21W/840 HE T5 lamp, only when I turn off the floodlight, in order to reduce overlighting in my room, when the floodlight is on.
My desk/table/computer lamp currently have Osram Duluxstar 8W/827 CFL.
The lamp on my bed, which I turns it on before going asleep, and during awakening, is a NISKO one with Radium Relux 9W/840.
Why don't you let the MH light up the room?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: dor123 on April 13, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
In most of the time, I use the floodlight, but at late hours of the evening, I turning it off in favor of my Hyundai 21W T5 batten to reduce the lighting level in my room before asleep.
Also, during hot weathers, I aims the floodlight directly to the floor to get rid of the lamp IR radiation which heats me considerably.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 13, 2016, 05:06:08 PM
In most of the time, I use the floodlight, but at late hours of the evening, I turning it off in favor of my Hyundai 21W T5 batten to reduce the lighting level in my room before asleep.
Also, during hot weathers, I aims the floodlight directly to the floor to get rid of the lamp IR radiation which heats me considerably.
It's like a 70 watt heater constantly going. If you run it 24/7, It will generate 1680 watts a day.
Imagine running a 1800 watt heater for an hour.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on April 13, 2016, 08:30:18 PM
Little confusion here :

Energy is quantified in Joules. Things that are energy and therefore can be measured in Joules are for example :

 - Energy contained in a battery

 - Energy contained in a volume of fuel

 - Energy it takes to heat up some volume by a predetermined temperature difference

 - Energy it takes to lift a mass to a predetermined height



Power is how fast the energy is getting moved, converted and such. Power is measured in Watts, which equal Joules/Sec

 - The 70W Metal Halide lamp converts 70 Joules of Energy into (light + heat + ...) every second it works

The unit allready contains the division by time within, so there is no such thing as "Watts a day", cause that means "Joules a second a day" - It makes no sense in the sense we are trying to use it here

(there are possible cases where Watts/Day can be meaningful. For example, when you say something like "the electricity damands of our town are growing by 100 watts a day" - That is, one day the average load was 100000W and the next day it was 100100W)



When you multiply (and not divide !) Power with Time, then you get Energy :

 - The 70W Metal Halide lamp converts 70 Joules of Energy into (light + heat + ...) every second it works. Over a minute that is 4200 Joules

 - If you were to run it on battery, a battery that contains 42000 joules would last 10 minutes

 - If you connect 2 70W Halides, the battery with 42000 joules would last 5 minutes



Units can be converted. For example, power company measures energy consumption in KWh That is KW multiplied with Hours. 1KWh = 1000 * 3600 = 3.6M Joules

Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 13, 2016, 11:09:08 PM
Little confusion here :

Energy is quantified in Joules. Things that are energy and therefore can be measured in Joules are for example :

 - Energy contained in a battery

 - Energy contained in a volume of fuel

 - Energy it takes to heat up some volume by a predetermined temperature difference

 - Energy it takes to lift a mass to a predetermined height



Power is how fast the energy is getting moved, converted and such. Power is measured in Watts, which equal Joules/Sec

 - The 70W Metal Halide lamp converts 70 Joules of Energy into (light + heat + ...) every second it works

The unit allready contains the division by time within, so there is no such thing as "Watts a day", cause that means "Joules a second a day" - It makes no sense in the sense we are trying to use it here

(there are possible cases where Watts/Day can be meaningful. For example, when you say something like "the electricity damands of our town are growing by 100 watts a day" - That is, one day the average load was 100000W and the next day it was 100100W)



When you multiply (and not divide !) Power with Time, then you get Energy :

 - The 70W Metal Halide lamp converts 70 Joules of Energy into (light + heat + ...) every second it works. Over a minute that is 4200 Joules

 - If you were to run it on battery, a battery that contains 42000 joules would last 10 minutes

 - If you connect 2 70W Halides, the battery with 42000 joules would last 5 minutes



Units can be converted. For example, power company measures energy consumption in KWh That is KW multiplied with Hours. 1KWh = 1000 * 3600 = 3.6M Joules


I think you are getting confused. Running a 70W MH light (About 10% efficient, Lets round down to 60W) is using 70W of instantaneous power, Or 70 Watts in an hour.
Because nothing is 100% efficient, 60 Watts will get converted to heat in 1 hour.
60 Watts X 24 Hours in a day = 1440 Watts in 1 day.

Another thing you can convert is Watts to BTU/h, 1440 x 3.4 = 4896 Total BTU.
Some proof of this is connecting a meter/measuerer to the MH lamp, And calculating how much power is being drawn.

Joules are also useful here, But Watts is usually the better term.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: BlueHalide on April 14, 2016, 12:05:11 AM
@mbulb146 the torchieres were not previously double ended halogen, but rather just E26 medium screw. I installed new pulse rated lampholders, and the ballasts for both fixtures are Advance 100w M90 F-cans remote mounted in a closet adjacent to the living room, I drilled a 1/2" hole at the bottom of the wall for the lamp cords.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on April 14, 2016, 12:33:45 AM
The definition of power (Watts) allready contains the division by time inside it :

70 Watts = 70 Joules/Sec

Joules can be converted to various equivalent units, which all sign energy. One of them is Watt Hours (more commonly KW Hours is used, but Watt Hours is a legit unit). Note that this is multiplication : Watts * Hours. You power the 70W lamp for 3 hours, that is 210 Watt Hours. If you divide that by Hours, you come back to Watts... And that is the 70 Watts power


In the sense we use here, there is no meaning to units like Watts in Day. When you multiply power with time you get energy, that can be for example Watt Hours



For the explanation i skipped everything related to efficiency. Realistic performance of MH lamps is on the order of :

0.91 efficient ballast (modern lowloss ballast)

0.1..0.2 efficient lamp (varies greatly with lamp type)

0.9 efficient reflectors in lantern
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 14, 2016, 10:37:31 AM
The definition of power (Watts) allready contains the division by time inside it :

70 Watts = 70 Joules/Sec

Joules can be converted to various equivalent units, which all sign energy. One of them is Watt Hours (more commonly KW Hours is used, but Watt Hours is a legit unit). Note that this is multiplication : Watts * Hours. You power the 70W lamp for 3 hours, that is 210 Watt Hours. If you divide that by Hours, you come back to Watts... And that is the 70 Watts power


In the sense we use here, there is no meaning to units like Watts in Day. When you multiply power with time you get energy, that can be for example Watt Hours



For the explanation i skipped everything related to efficiency. Realistic performance of MH lamps is on the order of :

0.91 efficient ballast (modern lowloss ballast)

0.1..0.2 efficient lamp (varies greatly with lamp type)

0.9 efficient reflectors in lantern
Oops, I should have said Watt Hours per Day. This makes those odd X" KWH per Year!" ratings invalid.

I think the reason my post did not have WH in it is because it was late at night.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on April 15, 2016, 06:21:48 PM
Actually WH/Year that is a unit that makes sense. It is a unit of power... But of average power



Watts = Joules / Sec = Energy / Time = Power

Watt Hours = ( Energy / Time ) * Time = Energy

Watt Hours / Year = [ ( Energy / Time ) * Time ] / Time = Energy / Time = Power



lets say the 70 Watt lamp is working 8 Hours / Day - That is 1/3 of the day

70 Watts * 8 Hours / Day * 365 1/4 Days / Year = 204540 Watt Hours / Year



The 70 Watt lamp uses 70 Watts for 1/3 of the day, nothing the rest of the day. On average (over a day or longer period), it can be said to have average power of 70 / 3 ~= 23 1/3 Watts

Now lets see how the 204540 Watt Hours / Year reflect this. That is, we see that "Watt Hours / Year" is a unit of power, and it means that it can be converted to any other unit of power by simple unit conversion. Lets see how it converts to Watts :



1 Year = 365 1/4 Days

1 Day = 24 Hours

1 Year = 365 1/4 * 24 = 8766 Hours



204540 Watt Hours / Year = [ replace the Year with its equivalent in Hours ]

204540 Watt Hours / [ 8766 Hours ] = [ Hours divided by Hours = the units cancel out ]

204540 Watt / [ 8766 ] = 204540/8766 Watts = 23 1/3 Watts

Or generally the rule is, 8766 Watt Hours / Year = 1 Watt



What happened here, we did the exact same calculation but backwards...

In the forward direction, this would mean, that a 23 1/3 Watt lamp working all the time would use the same amount of electricity over a year. That is indeed correct :

23 1/3 Watts * 24 Hours / Day * 365 1/4 Days / Year = 204540 Watt Hours / Year = 204540 Watt Hours / Year
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: RyanF40T12 on April 16, 2016, 01:23:18 AM
Ya'll lost me.  But that is what I get for not going to college/University.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on April 17, 2016, 05:46:54 PM
Ya'll lost me.  But that is what I get for not going to college/University.
What do you know?
It's basic arithmetic.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Lightingguy1994 on May 02, 2016, 02:02:58 AM
I'm also really bad with math lol.
I live in Ontario Canada where the cost of electricity has been going up twice a year, Seems when we save more energy, they jack the price up because they aren't selling enough electricity so I have given up lol. As a matter of fact its rising another $3 or so this month. Looks like when i move to the country, i'll be getting off grid options!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 02, 2016, 04:48:43 PM
The power company does want users to save energy. One reason is, electricity usage grows over the years anyway, and the grid have to be upgraded over time to handle the growing load. When users save energy they slow down this grow, and to the power company this means, that they can postpone expensive upgrades to powerplants, transformers, power lines and so on
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Lightingguy1994 on May 02, 2016, 06:54:16 PM
I would hope that the money is going towards electrical upgrades etc. The skyrocketing cost has become a top issue here for years now. Currently the average home will see around 30$ more on their bill as rates have just increased May 1st
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 06, 2016, 08:15:56 AM
I would hope that the money is going towards electrical upgrades etc. The skyrocketing cost has become a top issue here for years now. Currently the average home will see around 30$ more on their bill as rates have just increased May 1st
What is the $/KW price? It is about $.125 Per KW here.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Lightingguy1994 on May 06, 2016, 11:22:16 AM
Summer (May1 to Oct 31st)
Off peak (7pm to 7am) is 8.7 cents per kWh
Mid peak (7-11am & 5-7pm) is 13.2 cents per kWh
On peak (11am - 5pm) is 18 cents per kWh

Weekends/ Holidays
8.7 cents per kWh

Winter (November 1 - April 30)
Off peak (7pm to 7am) is 8.7 cents per kWh
Mid peak (11am - 5pm) is 13.2 cents per kWh
On peak  (7-11am & 5-7pm) is 18 cents per kWh
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: rqh12 on May 06, 2016, 01:03:02 PM
My wife bought some LED bulbs, which cost about 10 bucks each in the supermarket.  One of them stopped working after a month.  No problem, they have a g'tee for 5 years.  Except, who keeps supermarket receipts for 5 years?

Anyway, I hate LEDs in the house.  Unshaded bulbs leave an after image on my retina even if I am not looking at them directly.  Also, especially with torches, the light is bright but you can't see any detail:  for example trying to read the specs engraved on an automotive bulk, or the serial number etched onto a plastic back panel.

Perhaps it is my age, but I like the crisp sharp vision you get under HPS street lamps, and I hate the HID car headlamps.  There is a good reason for the latter.  The human eye recovers much more quickly from the dazzle of a warm light than a cold light.  Back in the 70s or 80s all the cars in France had bright yellow headlights.  No dazzle and they looked way cool (no pun intended).
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: ace100w120v on May 13, 2016, 01:01:13 AM
I've slowly let them in myself...
2 Philips A19 8.5w 2700K LEDs are the only ones in current use and they're great for what they are, though the color is a little drab, arguably worse than a lot of CFLs, but OK for the hallway lights they're in.  I had some "Designer's Edge" 3w 6400K PAR30s in use but took them out of service after a few years.  They date to 2011 or so, pretty primitive by today's standards and they were never that bright to begin with.  I also have this "Firefly" LED PAR20 lamp that looks like something NASA would build, it's a 9.5w 40w replacement but has horrid 60Hz flicker I can't stand.  (linear magnetic ballasted fluorescents don't bother me at all though).

Mostly still CFLs in use, (2700K, 3000K 5000K, 6500K, not depending on application, just what I bought and installed) though as they die I think I'll go LED, probably 5000K daylight. Or if I get some LEDs cheap I'll convert everything.  Even the little places like the refrigerator bulbs will get LEDs eventually, or at least that's my plan. 

Linear fluorescents, though?  Not unless the ballasts fail, then I might go with LED tubes.  But I like my magnetic T12s too much to replace them.  F32T8s, maybe, also as they die. 

Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 13, 2016, 03:01:25 AM
Heh we use feit par 38 bulbs in recessed cans throughout the house. Major installment is in the bathroom upstairs, where they are switched on and used everyday. Second is the little downlight over the window ledge in the master bedroom. Last is a single bulb that is up against an Incan and CFL. The trio were installed November of '14 and nothing of the experiment burnt out yet. The other bulbs remain intact too.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Skiller on May 16, 2016, 10:08:23 AM
Except for a single table lamp in which I am testing a filament LED lamp (of which I am impressed so far after 4 months) it's all entirely incandescent and halogen in my household and I'm going to keep it that way for the most part for years to come. I used to have a CFL here or there 15 years ago but nowadays I despise them. Incandescent rules.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 16, 2016, 10:12:51 AM
We don't like Incandescent because it makes too much heat - the last thing you want in Florida.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: magslight on May 16, 2016, 02:51:09 PM
I use a mix of indescandescent/Halogen and LED Filament lamps for warm white light indoors. As long time light I have flourescent tubes in various colors and since now more than a year two LED retrofit flourescent tubes behind white milk glass. The oldest lamp in use is my desk light with a Philips HPL-N 80W from 1998 which is not really bright anymore but gives a nice moon light- also behind milk glass. And it's my only cycling MV with many 1000s of hours ;D
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: ace100w120v on May 22, 2016, 01:37:09 AM
I just bought and installed two 8.5w LED GE 11w 2700K A19 bulbs today.  I really like them.  Color is very natural and warm, better than CFLs. 

I also have some "BlueFire" 5w daylight LED filament bulbs on the way. 
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 22, 2016, 10:34:57 AM
I thought they only came in soft white colors.
And I have a reputation for getting other people to use LED.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 22, 2016, 05:04:27 PM
Our biggest issue with the Incandescents was, they were tripping the breakers when they were going out. Sometimes they would take out the 16A for the room, sometimes the 32A main for the house too !

And those were good lamps. We avoided cheapies because those would simply explode, as they did at many of our friends homes
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 22, 2016, 08:28:56 PM
Our biggest issue with the Incandescents was, they were tripping the breakers when they were going out. Sometimes they would take out the 16A for the room, sometimes the 32A main for the house too !

And those were good lamps. We avoided cheapies because those would simply explode, as they did at many of our friends homes

Incandescents tripping breakers and Incandescent Explosions are completely unheard of here.
And why are your breakers in 2^X A form?
Also, Why are your house breakers so small? Here, 200A is considered small.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 23, 2016, 01:43:25 AM
Incandescents tripping breakers and Incandescent Explosions or completely unheard of here.

The main problem comes from the higher voltage: 120V is way less likely to form an arc than 230V. Therefore the 230V lamps have to contain higher percentage of Nitrogen in the fill, which makes them less efficient.
Then the higher voltage means higher short circuit currents. Both means the arc in the incandescents is way stronger and more persistent, causing the breaker tripping problems.
On the other hand the fire problems with an insulation faults, where the wires barely touch each other and so just sparkle, overheat, cause fire, but still do not trip the breaker are unheard of in the 230V areas: If a sparkle happens, it sets massive fat arc, which always causes enough current to trip the breaker, so the likelihood of fire is greatly reduced (only the initial spark has any chance, but that could be well contained with proper cable materials; with 120V long term sparkling the proper material melts away and then exposes the surroundings to the sparking/heat)


And why are your breakers in 2^X A form?

It is just some of the higher values, but it isn't really general rule. The initiation may have come from the fact, than given the achievanble tolerances and necessary margins, the sqrt(2) is the most optimal spacings (the tolerance bands just do not overlap), which means it doubles each other step.

Also, Why are your house breakers so small? Here, 200A is considered small.

That is quite relative. In your case it means 200A at 240V, which is 48kVA, with the home power input to be the 2x120V.
In 2130V world the house power input uses to be three phase 3x230/400V, so for the same capacity level it means about 3x63A (rounded for the nearest circuit breaker rating). And these uses to be the main input fuses in the main entry point (but not the main circuit breaker, which is then located inhouse and technically makes sure you do not exceed the the power capacity reserved by your utility contract).
For a single home house that is quite high, but I can not imagine, how a single family would make any use of more than about 24kVA or so.
But when some commercial facility is present, the 3x63A as the power capacity reservation is really the minimum here as well...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 23, 2016, 08:04:41 AM

For a single home house that is quite high, but I can not imagine, how a single family would make any use of more than about 24kVA or so.
Depending on your conditions, It's easier than you think.
Let's do a sample calculation, And for simplicity, We will assume the kW = kVA:
Dryer = 5.4 kVA
Stove = 11.3 kVA
Water Heater = 4.5 kVA
House Air Conditioner = 14 kVA (We don't actually know, This is just an estimate. It's also on a 240V 60A breaker.)
Portable Air Conditioner = 1 kVA
Instant Sink Water Heater = 2.4 kVA
Pool Pump = 4 kVA (We also don't know, But it is on a 240V 20A breaker.)

And this is not including lighting and power outlets.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 23, 2016, 12:40:43 PM
Depending on your conditions, It's easier than you think.
Let's do a sample calculation, And for simplicity, We will assume the kW = kVA:
Dryer = 5.4 kVA
Stove = 11.3 kVA
Water Heater = 4.5 kVA
House Air Conditioner = 14 kVA (We don't actually know, This is just an estimate. It's also on a 240V 60A breaker.)
Portable Air Conditioner = 1 kVA
Instant Sink Water Heater = 2.4 kVA
Pool Pump = 4 kVA (We also don't know, But it is on a 240V 20A breaker.)
And this is not including lighting and power outlets.

That is overrated. It may represent the required individual breaker capacities (there with the mobile airco I would expect a bit higher level, but it is possible yours are designed with lower inrush relative to the steady power - mainly the "inverter" types; the just 120V mains may require that).
But many of these are way higher than I see as realistic real power input. The thing is, you can not just sum up the breaker ratings, with many of them the inrush current (mainly the motors - so the air conditioner and the pool pump) requires way higher circuit breaker rating than is then the real power input (about 5x for motor loads; so the pool filter pump will be less than 1kW, the air conditioner about 4kW; assume they are compensated for the steady state operation, so the power factor is unity).
The thing is, all such loads will never turn ON at exactly the same time, so for the main breaker you do not have to sum them up together, but the individual branches need that high breaker rating (60A for the airco, 20A for the pool pump,...). The only thing you have to is to take the steady load of all others and add the inrush current of the last device.
Similar with the stove: I can not imagine, how would you have to cook to need 11kW for any longer time (the 11kW is just the peak input for few minutes), so it is very unlikely it will happen together with inrush of all other high power devices.

The realistic power requirements I would see as:
Dryer = 5.4 kVA (that's already quite high, ours are 2kW and even that is sometimes too much heat for the clothing, so it has to be reduced to 1kW settings. But lets assume it is so)
Stove = 6kW (11.3 kVA short term)
Water Heater = 4.5 kVA
House Air Conditioner = 4kVA (14 kVA inrush) (assume about 12kW of removed heat; about the same as needed for space heating here)
Portable Air Conditioner = 1 kVA
Instant Sink Water Heater = 2.4 kVA (I've not seen suchthing when there is the central water heater installed; mainly the 3.6kW most common here for the 16A/230V is way too low power, it allows really only very slow water flow rate; no sense if you have hot water waiting in the main heater tank)
Pool Pump = 1kVA (4 kVA inrush)
The rest is below 1kW (lighting,...).

That sums up to about 24kVA steady (so 3x35A for the 3x230V; an inrush of 35kVA is smaller than factor of 2 over the steady load, so could be swallowed by the breaker time dependence, so no need for higher capacity), about the same as common here for the "better" equipped houses (here the pool and/or airco are really quite rare, mainly due to the colder climate - the weather just won't allow you to use the pool longer than few weeks in the summer; same for the air conditioning - it's use is only for few hottest weeks, otherwise not needed).

Of course, you may overrate the main input, technically there is nothing wrong with it. But it is just too expensive here, because quite significant part of the electricity payment is derived from the reserved power (so the main breaker rating). And that makes you think twice what you really need to pay for...
The reason for such politics is the fact than the idle losses in the distribution network follow the installed capacity and not the real power usage. So when all customers would ask for twice as much reserved power capacity than really needed, the idle losses will double without actually providing any extra service. So there is that push to keep the reserved power really corresponding to the real power usage.
And there are even proposals to make the "reserved power" part relatively larger, as for most homes the 3x35A is still too much here (with gas for heating and stove being very common here you really do not need more than 3x16A or so; even that contains quite some buffer for some airco or so; of course, counting for our climate and reasonable house thermal insulation).
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 23, 2016, 05:59:26 PM
Depending on your conditions, It's easier than you think.
Let's do a sample calculation, And for simplicity, We will assume the kW = kVA:
Dryer = 5.4 kVA
Stove = 11.3 kVA
Water Heater = 4.5 kVA
House Air Conditioner = 14 kVA (We don't actually know, This is just an estimate. It's also on a 240V 60A breaker.)
Portable Air Conditioner = 1 kVA
Instant Sink Water Heater = 2.4 kVA
Pool Pump = 4 kVA (We also don't know, But it is on a 240V 20A breaker.)
And this is not including lighting and power outlets.

That is overrated. It may represent the required individual breaker capacities (there with the mobile airco I would expect a bit higher level, but it is possible yours are designed with lower inrush relative to the steady power - mainly the "inverter" types; the just 120V mains may require that).
But many of these are way higher than I see as realistic real power input. The thing is, you can not just sum up the breaker ratings, with many of them the inrush current (mainly the motors - so the air conditioner and the pool pump) requires way higher circuit breaker rating than is then the real power input (about 5x for motor loads; so the pool filter pump will be less than 1kW, the air conditioner about 4kW; assume they are compensated for the steady state operation, so the power factor is unity).
The thing is, all such loads will never turn ON at exactly the same time, so for the main breaker you do not have to sum them up together, but the individual branches need that high breaker rating (60A for the airco, 20A for the pool pump,...). The only thing you have to is to take the steady load of all others and add the inrush current of the last device.
Similar with the stove: I can not imagine, how would you have to cook to need 11kW for any longer time (the 11kW is just the peak input for few minutes), so it is very unlikely it will happen together with inrush of all other high power devices.

The realistic power requirements I would see as:
Dryer = 5.4 kVA (that's already quite high, ours are 2kW and even that is sometimes too much heat for the clothing, so it has to be reduced to 1kW settings. But lets assume it is so)
Stove = 6kW (11.3 kVA short term)
Water Heater = 4.5 kVA
House Air Conditioner = 4kVA (14 kVA inrush) (assume about 12kW of removed heat; about the same as needed for space heating here)
Portable Air Conditioner = 1 kVA
Instant Sink Water Heater = 2.4 kVA (I've not seen suchthing when there is the central water heater installed; mainly the 3.6kW most common here for the 16A/230V is way too low power, it allows really only very slow water flow rate; no sense if you have hot water waiting in the main heater tank)
Pool Pump = 1kVA (4 kVA inrush)
The rest is below 1kW (lighting,...).

That sums up to about 24kVA steady (so 3x35A for the 3x230V; an inrush of 35kVA is smaller than factor of 2 over the steady load, so could be swallowed by the breaker time dependence, so no need for higher capacity), about the same as common here for the "better" equipped houses (here the pool and/or airco are really quite rare, mainly due to the colder climate - the weather just won't allow you to use the pool longer than few weeks in the summer; same for the air conditioning - it's use is only for few hottest weeks, otherwise not needed).

Of course, you may overrate the main input, technically there is nothing wrong with it. But it is just too expensive here, because quite significant part of the electricity payment is derived from the reserved power (so the main breaker rating). And that makes you think twice what you really need to pay for...
The reason for such politics is the fact than the idle losses in the distribution network follow the installed capacity and not the real power usage. So when all customers would ask for twice as much reserved power capacity than really needed, the idle losses will double without actually providing any extra service. So there is that push to keep the reserved power really corresponding to the real power usage.
And there are even proposals to make the "reserved power" part relatively larger, as for most homes the 3x35A is still too much here (with gas for heating and stove being very common here you really do not need more than 3x16A or so; even that contains quite some buffer for some airco or so; of course, counting for our climate and reasonable house thermal insulation).
Yes, I probably exaggerated the power values, And the sink water heater dispenses near-boiling water for cooking. It's for skipping boiling water when you want to make instant soup.
The house air conditioner takes a lot of power because it has gigantic resistance heaters,
But I can't be sure of the power level because the attic is a pain to get to.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 25, 2016, 02:01:31 AM
Resistance heaters in an airco assembly? Thats would indeed mean the huge power need, but it is stupid:
There is already the complex heat pumping machinery. To turn it into a high efficient heater you just need a single reversing valve around the compressor (so few dollars; I would guess way cheaper than the resistive heaters with all the extra fire protections it needs as it may reach very high temperatures when the fan fails or so) and you get a heating with efficiency factor at least 3 (with temperatures fropping below freezing; so for each 1kW consumed it gives off 3kW of heat), so saving at least 2/3 of electricity for heating.

Here (so with the heating season about two weeks below minus 10degC, otherwise most of it around 0 till +10degC) the experience with the cheapest wall mount units is they do reach the efficiency factor of 3 in average, the really cold periods (when the efficiency does drop significantly) are included in that average, so I don't thing larger machines would be any less efficient than that...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 25, 2016, 07:17:20 AM
Resistance heaters in an airco assembly? Thats would indeed mean the huge power need, but it is stupid:
There is already the complex heat pumping machinery. To turn it into a high efficient heater you just need a single reversing valve around the compressor (so few dollars; I would guess way cheaper than the resistive heaters with all the extra fire protections it needs as it may reach very high temperatures when the fan fails or so) and you get a heating with efficiency factor at least 3 (with temperatures fropping below freezing; so for each 1kW consumed it gives off 3kW of heat), so saving at least 2/3 of electricity for heating.

Here (so with the heating season about two weeks below minus 10degC, otherwise most of it around 0 till +10degC) the experience with the cheapest wall mount units is they do reach the efficiency factor of 3 in average, the really cold periods (when the efficiency does drop significantly) are included in that average, so I don't thing larger machines would be any less efficient than that...
We also do have a reversing valve, But I think the resistance heaters are required to be in there.
Only for a few days does we need the resistance heater because it is too cold for the compressor.
But I think the breakers are turned off for the heaters, Or it could be a false memory.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 25, 2016, 08:20:52 PM
I have a whole house heat pump (only one compressor). I believe it is 2 ton, but maybe 2.5 ton. I do have an electrical resistance heater coil in the inside air handler. It is divided into stages so it does not come on all at once, but in total it is close to 20 000 watts. It is needed for the cold windy months. I live by the ocean, and with the cold wind coming from the water, the compressor alone cannot suffice in cold weather. The wind chill factor for the house is too high and it simply cannot keep up. The coil then kicks in to bring the temperature to the thermostat set point in such situations. Normally it kicks in at minus 5-7 degrees Celcius, but on really windy days it kicks in at plus 4-5 degrees Celcius.

Another use for the coil is to supply a bit of heat to the cooling cycle when the outside unit is in defrost mode. That happens at the most for 3-4 minutes every hour when needed. For the defrost cycle, it is way less than the full 20KW that runs. Of course, the electricity usage in winter is way more than in the summer.

Smaller wall mounted units may be different, and I'm not sure if they have a resistance heater or not.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 26, 2016, 01:31:07 AM
OIt is true, the systems I'm familiar with are not primarily designed to be the prime and only heating in the house, but rather a cooling devices for the (few) hot summer weeks, the heating there being just a bonus, the main heating here is usually gas or solid fuel. Usually the heat function is used as main heating, because even when the electricity is abouttwice as expensive to the gas for the same energy, the efficiency of the heat pump makes it cheaper and this savings usually cover the extra energy the air condition consumes during the summer (compare to the most common house without any airco at all, the climate here does not really require it, it is just an item of luxury). But even when the units are mainly designed as coolers, their users haven't turn the gas heaters ON even when we have here winters with -10degC 24 hour average...
The stroonger wind is actually helping the compressor - it makes the temperature difference between the evaporator and the external environment even lower, but it would require better house insulation to make the heatpump power sufficient...
But generally what I may compare with the places I've visited in the US (Pocatello area in Idaho, so not that warm part), the house insulation standard (well, today that is already way short for the legal minimum for new houses) here are way higher than what I've seen in the US, so it could be the heat requirements in the US are way higher than I'm used to. Plus the house construction here offers very high amount of thermal inertia mass. So just utilizing the day vs night temperature differences makes the windows just a sufficient equipment to maintain the comfortable temperature over a big part of the year...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 26, 2016, 07:23:52 AM
How hot are your summers? It's only spring and it's getting to 107 F (42 C) outside.
I also have an idea of what winters feel like because I traveled to Belgium once in early winter.
Another funny thing that happens is everywhere you go, You can't avoid Air Conditioning companies.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 26, 2016, 06:02:23 PM
How hot are your summers? It's only spring and it's getting to 107 F (42 C) outside.
Just few weeks above 30degC daily peaks, the minimum very rarely does not drop below 27degC for at least few hours. That is not that long and not that hot to not stand it without any cooling than an open window at night...
Of course, you have to be careful to not let the heat in during the day (so keep the windows and doors closed), the ventilation during the day is a bit problematic... But for the rather short time it is bearable...
Of course, an airco brings way more comfort, mainly by allowing you to "flush" the air even during the day, but it is really not any must or so.

By the way I'm looking for some "swamp cooler" - mainly where to find some good evaporation mat (for the portable units, which do not need any ventilation and because the hot days are dry, it could be good enough with way cheaper operation; they usually contain just some cloth joke, which is too thin to really evaporate any significant amount of water to really cool something down)

I also have an idea of what winters feel like because I traveled to Belgium once in early winter.

I would guess the average temperature would be abut the same, but larger differences (both day vs night, as well as winter vs summer; well, we are a continental country and some 100's m higher above the sea level)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 26, 2016, 08:33:50 PM
By the way I'm looking for some "swamp cooler" - mainly where to find some good evaporation mat (for the portable units, which do not need any ventilation and because the hot days are dry, it could be good enough with way cheaper operation; they usually contain just some cloth joke, which is too thin to really evaporate any significant amount of water to really cool something down)
I don't know where to get them, But
you can go here: http://www.portacool.com/ (http://www.portacool.com/)
The local metal processing plant has one of these, and it seems to do well.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 27, 2016, 06:31:00 PM
The big appliances in my home are :

Air conditioning 2.5KW

Water heater 2.5KW

Space heater 3KW (normally used at only 1KW)

Kettle 2KW

Washing machine 1.5KW

Other homes have also dryers (~2KW) and sometimes instant water heaters (~5.5KW)



Thing is :

 - You never run all the loads at the same time at their max power level continuously. Sometimes you can have overload, but short term (less than 1 min to run the microwave or use the hot water)

 - Breakers dont trip immediately. You can overload them for short time without tripping - 40A from 32A breaker for couple minutes

 - Inrush currents are not accounted for in the breaker ratings, exactly because the breakers dont trip for overload the second a motor starts. The air conditioning unit for example takes about 80A..100A inrush at switch on, but it does not trip the C16A breaker it is connected to, and not the C32 main either



Breakers here (European style breakers) are sized in standard ratings that go like : 6 10 16 20 25 32 40 50 63 80 100

About 30..40 years back we had also 15A breakers, those were made locally by 1 manufacturer and it was not a standard rating

Common sizes used :

 - 10A for small circuits (lighting, single receptacles with low expected load

 - 16A for most home circuits, sometimes for appliances like water heaters and air conditioning in the 2.5KW range

 - 20A 25A for loads in the 3KW..3.5KW range, and for 5.5KW water heaters

 - 3x16A for big air conditioning units

 - 1x25A main in old homes (up to early 80s)

 - 1x32A main in late 80s/early 90s homes (like mine)

 - 1x40A main in late 90s homes and up

 - 3x25A main in big homes

 - 3x40A main in big homes with more loads



Isolation breakdown and breakers not tripping :

One problem for the US is the type of breakers used :

Here, common breakers used in homes are what is called by European standards type C - Trip immediately at 5x..10x nominal current. That is, 16A breaker for a room will trip immediately at currents of 80A..160A. In circuits with no big inrush currents, type B can be used - Trip immediately at 3x..5x nominal current. 16A breaker will trip immediately at 48A..80A

In the US, common breakers used in homes are equivalent to our type D - Trip immediately at 10x..20x nominal current. That is, 15A breaker will take 150A..300A to trip - Nobody guarantees so high short circuit currents, especially with the voltage lower in half

And then they try to sort out the problem by using arc fault breakers that are supposed to detect the isolation breakdown arcing by the waveforem - Expensive and unreliable electronics forced down to everyone through the NEC (as the manufacturers want), instead of using plain simple magnetic breakers of more decent immediate trip values....



But the best story was behind the iron curtain, with the Bulgarian made AE 1031 breakers (common through the Soviet Union and now Russia in homes built up to early 90s). Those had no magnetic trip at all. Even with a hard short circuit, they would take some quick moment to heat up before tripping. Such breakers would obviously have no chance of tripping for an isolation breakdown - The conductor at the place of arcing would melt away and break the circuit before the breaker trips

Speaking of the Soviet Union/Russia, houses there are getting permanent hot water and steam for space heating supplied from the city. The hot water is supplied in a sorta loop pipe, and being pumped through it continuously by the city - so the water in the pipe stays hot right up to the entry of the pipe to the house, and in 5-floor city buildings right up to the tap, even if nobody is using the water at the moment. When you open the water you dont have to flush long line of cold water before the hot arrives

So the list of high current appliances there is way shorter than here. It is not uncommon that the main breaker for an older house is 1x16A, and everyone is fine with that - As the only loads it sees is lighting, electronics, and the occasional microwave...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 27, 2016, 07:34:53 PM
What in the world is 6a used for? The lowest amp rating here I've seen in a breaker is 10. I've seen stuff like 6.5 and oddball screw fuses specifically for motor.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 27, 2016, 07:57:44 PM
Actually the range goes all the way down to 0.5A. The smallest breakers are most commonly used in control circuits where the only loads are relays and electronic modules, or in equipment - like for motors. I seen lanterns that have 3A breaker built in

6A is not as little as it appears.. 230V * 6A = 1380VA. Ok for breaker for a lighting only circuit like separate circuit for outdoor lights
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 27, 2016, 08:17:10 PM
Wait, I meant to say 15 lol. And I've seen garbage disposals in sinks with their own breakers too.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 28, 2016, 10:04:43 AM
And the main breaker panel (Outside) connects to 3 indoor panels, The one for most of the indoor plugs, lighting, and cooking, The Pool Panel, Which also controls an outlet, And the Air Conditioner/Attic Panel.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 28, 2016, 03:32:34 PM
In the 70s we moved from fuses to breakers. The standard rating for the fuses was 15A. This manufacturer made a breaker for those who wanted to keep the same rating as the original fuse. In practice there is no difference in application between the 15A and 16A breakers

One reason why the problem rised up was, that in the 70s it was common to wire 15A circuits with 1.5mm^2 wire (that is between 15 and 16 AWG). This was bad choice in the 1st place - Connections were failing at high loads. But at the time it was considered acceptable and bad connections were blamed for the failures. There was a claim that using 1A higher breaker on that wiring would be really too much - allthough it is really small difference, and in reality often 16A breakers (from other manufacturers) were used and it was no worse than with 15A

About the connections, in the 70s and 80s there was transition from wire nuts to Euro terminals. With the wire nuts the connection is great if you do it right, but it is fairly easy to mess it if you have no clue wat you are doing. With the Euro terminals it looks like some sparks became too confident as they appeared easy to use (compared to the wire nuts), and were making bad connections because they were not tightening them properly..
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 28, 2016, 04:37:07 PM
In the 70s we moved from fuses to breakers. The standard rating for the fuses was 15A. This manufacturer made a breaker for those who wanted to keep the same rating as the original fuse. In practice there is no difference in application between the 15A and 16A breakers

One reason why the problem rised up was, that in the 70s it was common to wire 15A circuits with 1.5mm^2 wire (that is between 15 and 16 AWG). This was bad choice in the 1st place - Connections were failing at high loads. But at the time it was considered acceptable and bad connections were blamed for the failures. There was a claim that using 1A higher breaker on that wiring would be really too much - allthough it is really small difference, and in reality often 16A breakers (from other manufacturers) were used and it was no worse than with 15A

About the connections, in the 70s and 80s there was transition from wire nuts to Euro terminals. With the wire nuts the connection is great if you do it right, but it is fairly easy to mess it if you have no clue wat you are doing. With the Euro terminals it looks like some sparks became too confident as they appeared easy to use (compared to the wire nuts), and were making bad connections because they were not tightening them properly..
Why not use bigger wires?
Everyone here uses wire nuts, and I have never heard of Euro Terminals.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: hannahs lights on May 28, 2016, 05:24:17 PM
In the UK most houses are fed by a 100 amp single phase supply occasianaly its only an 80 amp service for smaller homes. Individual circuits are 5 amp lighting 15 amp for fixed heating and single sockets 30 amp for ring mains and cookers if breakers are used its 6 16 and 32 amp as in Europe also if you want extra sockets just extend the ring main or wire a radial circuit for a double socket fused at 20 amps. Don't forget our plugs have there own individual fuses of 3 ,5 or 13 amps I will give more information if you want
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 28, 2016, 05:29:34 PM
In the UK most houses are fed by a 100 amp single phase supply occasianaly its only an 80 amp service for smaller homes. Individual circuits are 5 amp lighting 15 amp for fixed heating and single sockets 30 amp for ring mains and cookers if breakers are used its 6 16 and 32 amp as in Europe also if you want extra sockets just extend the ring main or wire a radial circuit for a double socket fused at 20 amps. Don't forget our plugs have there own individual fuses of 3 ,5 or 13 amps I will give more information if you want
Here, Fuses are only found in high power DC applications, and is never found in plugs except the specialty "Safety" plugs.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 28, 2016, 06:23:17 PM
In the 90s bigger wires became the norm, with code demanding 1.5mm^2 for 10A (no more for 16A) and 2.5mm^2 (between 13 and 14 AWG) for 16A. It appears that old 1.5mm^2 wiring survives fairly enough if the connections are done right though

Here older systems were done with wire nuts and newer with Euro terminals. Places built in the 70s/80s could be both, with more wire nuts in the 70s and more Euro terminals in the 80s. Euro terminals appear to be easier to use so give more confidence to the user, but it is about as easy to do a good job or a bad job with either type of connector

In the 80s we had a small appearance of Wagos but they did not become common. In recent years there is again appearance of Wagos (and Wago clones), this time more extensive, but they are still quite uncommon. I like Wagos but i consider them as apporopriate only for small currents - like in home lighting circuits, not for a circuit with receptacles on it



In UK the fuses in the plugs became required because of the high current capable ring :

 - C32 breaker takes between 160A and 320A to trip immediately, and some small portable lamp short circuiting might never reach those currents, so there is the problem of "its arcing and shorting and the breaker is not tripping". With 16A breakers its not a problem

 - The plugs theselfes cant handle safely 32A (the UK "13A" plug can really withstand way more than 13A, but not 32A). So there is need for some protection when an appliance is overloading the plug, like a partially shorted heater or a plug that was wired to too powerfull appliance (that was intended for hardwired connection). In Europe the breaker is only 16A, so plugs (even 10A rated ones) still handle it fairly safely. 2.5A 2-pin plugs on thin 0.75^2 wire are used mostly on applinces that are unlikely to draw continuously more than 2.5A - Either electronics with a <2.5A fuse inside, or things like lamps with predictable failure modes that cant overload the plug/cable continuously
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 28, 2016, 07:31:08 PM
Wow, It's so confusing.
We just have breakers usually in these sizes:
15A
20A
30A
45A
60A
75A
100A
150A
200A
And it's the same for 3 Phase.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 28, 2016, 09:16:39 PM
Here there are the standard current ratings :

0.5
1
2
3
6
10
16
20
25
32
40
50
63
80
100

Each of them is available in types B/C/D for different trip currents, sometimes special type for some special application. For home use the choice is down to Type B (tripping for relatively small inrush conditions) vs Type C (not tripping for them). In case of doubt, use Type C everywhere and only bother about the current rating

The good part - the breakers are all standard DIN rail - you choose what manufacturer you like, regardless of what you have there now. They dont fit only panels from the same manufacturer
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 28, 2016, 11:19:10 PM
The good part - the breakers are all standard DIN rail - you choose what manufacturer you like, regardless of what you have there now. They dont fit only panels from the same manufacturer
I finally know what DIN Rail is for.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 29, 2016, 02:10:09 AM
Using the "C" for normal sockets and lighting is not allowed here, as the "short circuit" trigger is set too high to protect the wiring (= keep the maximum temperature below limit with any load shape "just below" the circuit breaker tripping and followed by a short circuit).
The "C" and "D" are allowed for special fixed installation (so not for sockets and lighting), but the wiring has to be derated accordingly (so while for a B16A and a cable in not well ventilated conduit 2.5mm^2 wire gauge is sufficient, for C16A you need 4mm^2; for well cooled wiring you suffice with 1.5mm^2 for a B16A).

The low amp breakers (the 6A and below) are indeed useful for the low load lighting, where it allows the use of thinner wiring (1mm^2 or so). The thinner wiring does not only occupies less space, but as well limits the current when the (mainly incandescent) lamps decide to fail and so somewhat reduce the probability of such phenomenons as exploding incandescent lamps or so.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 07:56:18 AM
Using the "C" for normal sockets and lighting is not allowed here, as the "short circuit" trigger is set too high to protect the wiring (= keep the maximum temperature below limit with any load shape "just below" the circuit breaker tripping and followed by a short circuit).
The "C" and "D" are allowed for special fixed installation (so not for sockets and lighting), but the wiring has to be derated accordingly (so while for a B16A and a cable in not well ventilated conduit 2.5mm^2 wire gauge is sufficient, for C16A you need 4mm^2; for well cooled wiring you suffice with 1.5mm^2 for a B16A).

The low amp breakers (the 6A and below) are indeed useful for the low load lighting, where it allows the use of thinner wiring (1mm^2 or so). The thinner wiring does not only occupies less space, but as well limits the current when the (mainly incandescent) lamps decide to fail and so somewhat reduce the probability of such phenomenons as exploding incandescent lamps or so.
Too bad we don't have those small breakers here.
Everything connected to a 15A breaker (Even lighting) has 15A wire, Even on single bulb installations.
And do you have GFCI/GFI sockets there?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 29, 2016, 02:39:09 PM
My house, built in 2009, has one 15 A breaker for each of the following loads :
-dishwasher
-refrigerator
-120V receptacle for gas cooking stove
-175W mercury vapour street light
-whole house ventilation
-microwave oven

In the kitchen, each half of every duplex outlet at the countertop has a 15A breaker, except the GFCI ones beside the sink which each have a dedicated 20A breaker (and 15/20A T-slots).

There are no breakers in the panel smaller than 15A. The largest is a 100A 240V for the heat pump auxiliary heating coil, which is about 20 KW.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 02:43:08 PM
My house, built in 2009, has one 15 A breaker for each of the following loads :
-dishwasher
-refrigerator
-120V receptacle for gas cooking stove
-175W mercury vapour street light
-whole house ventilation
-microwave oven

In the kitchen, each half of every duplex outlet at the countertop has a 15A breaker, except the GFCI ones beside the sink which each have a dedicated 20A breaker (and 15/20A T-slots).

There are no breakers in the panel smaller than 15A. The largest is a 100A 240V for the heat pump auxiliary heating coil, which is about 20 KW.
Our 100 Amp breaker goes to an indoor sub-panel.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 29, 2016, 02:56:11 PM
In most instances a large breaker such as a 100A would feed a sub panel. However, given the 20KW of heating coil, this one feeds the load directly, with 6AWG wire.

I do have a small sub panel built into the bottom of the main panel for generator backup use. It is fed by a double acting 60A breaker (I think). It has a locking bar so you can only turn on either the generator source or the mains source. The locking bar only moves when both halves of the breaker are in the off position. Furthermore, this special breaker also interrupts the neutral.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 03:18:03 PM
In most instances a large breaker such as a 100A would feed a sub panel. However, given the 20KW of heating coil, this one feeds the load directly, with 6AWG wire.

I do have a small sub panel built into the bottom of the main panel for generator backup use. It is fed by a double acting 60A breaker (I think). It has a locking bar so you can only turn on either the generator source or the mains source. The locking bar only moves when both halves of the breaker are in the off position. Furthermore, this special breaker also interrupts the neutral.
You have a backup generator?
We just have an old portable generator.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 29, 2016, 03:33:14 PM
No, just a panel and outdoor connection point. I haven't gotten around to looking for one yet. I need to get a storage shed first. Of course this generator wouldn't power the whole house, just the refrigerator, water pump and a few lights and receptacles. The cost was minimal when building a house, so I went for it.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 03:58:54 PM
No, just a panel and outdoor connection point. I haven't gotten around to looking for one yet. I need to get a storage shed first. Of course this generator wouldn't power the whole house, just the refrigerator, water pump and a few lights and receptacles. The cost was minimal when building a house, so I went for it.
You wouldn't need a storage shed for this generator. They have their own enclosure, And if you put it in a shed, It would have to be big and have loads of ventilation.
If that's all you want, You can just use a portable generator and an extension cord.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 29, 2016, 04:02:38 PM
Yes, a portable generator. I would use it outdoors as you describe, but store it in the shed. I have no place to store it but in a shed.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 04:23:44 PM
Yes, a portable generator. I would use it outdoors as you describe, but store it in the shed. I have no place to store it but in a shed.
We store ours under Awnings.
Then we put a concrete mixing tub over it.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 29, 2016, 05:41:38 PM
Here B and C are used for home circuits, D is not

Current code requires 2.5mm^2 from 16A breaker (whether B or C) and up to any end receptacle that can take "any load". It is allowed to branch from the 16A circuit with 1.5mm^2 for fixed loads that cannot exceed 10A (except short circuits), so for example if a room is on 16A breaker, the main wiring to the room and the wiring to each receptacle is 2.5, the lighting is 1.5

There are no problems with 2.5 on C16A breaker, neither on G16A and L16A types that existed in the past. The cable installation methods used here are 3 single conductors pulled in a plastic pipe inside a wall, or sometimes N2XY cable in pipe or in the open (inside drop ceilings)



We dont havd GFCI sockets. the equivalent device is RCD - a breaker in the panel - it is a separate breaker providing only the GF function, and must be connected in series with the current limiting breaker. Usually one RCD is used for multiple circuits, that is :

Input power --> main current limiting breaker --> one or more RCDs, each RCD --> one or more 16A breakers --> circuits

The standard RCD used in homes is of completely electromagnetic construction, there are no electronics inside. The Phase (or 3 Phases) and Neutral for the circuit go through a current transformer where they normally cancel out. The secondary from the transformer is connected to the magnet coil that trips the breaker



Current code requires separate 16A 2.5mm^2 circuit for each single receptacle in the kitchen. In the past (80s 90s) the requirements were 1 separate 16A 2.5mm^2 for the oven, and everything else could be on the same circuit including same circuit with things in other rooms. In the more far past (70s) it was same but with 1.5mm^2

This is about what a "standard" home panel is like :

2000s :

40A main
 - 20A aircon
 - 16A aircon
 - 16A aircon
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 16A dryer
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms
 - 16A rooms
 - 16A outdoors
 - 16A garage
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 10A lighting
 - 10A lighting
 - 6A lighting

90s :

32A main
 - 20A aircon
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting + outdoors
 - 16A garage
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 10A lighting
 - 10A lighting

80s :

25A main
 - 16A aircon
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting + outdoors + garage
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen incl. lighting
 - 10A lighting

70s :

25A main
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 10A half the house incl. lighting
 - 10A half the house incl. lighting
 - 16A kitchen

60s :

No main
 - 15A fuse water tank heater
 - 15A fuse half the house incl. lighting
 - 15A fuse half the house incl. lighting + kitchen
 - 15A fuse lighting
 - 15A fuse lighting
main wiring between the fuses was usually 1.5 too, that is, this short 1.5 wire could carry the load from multiple 15A circuits. In the best case it was a 2.5

50s :

No main
 - 30A fuse all the house
 - 15A fuse water tank heater
The 30A fuse was feeding directly multiple 1.5mm^2 circuits, basically all the house (there was no overload protection at all, it was assumed that people dont have enough appliances to oveload one of the 1.5 branches. In following years this became wrong assumption, and it was common occurence that the wiring burns off and opens or melts the isolation and shorts in those old systems. Nasty legacy from the 1st years of the state)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 06:21:24 PM
Wow, That's a lot of evolution for breakers.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 29, 2016, 09:04:29 PM
@Ash, the history you present here is roughly what it was here only for 120V and the amperage is roughly twice what you specify for the main breakers because of this. The major difference is I believe there were no installations that didn't have a main fuse or circuit breaker. There was a time when panels were made with a main circuit breaker but individual circuits were protected by fuses. Early panels only had 2-4 fuses, and some protected quite large circuits such as all the house lighting, etc. People would screw out a bad fuse and put a coin in the back and then screw in the bad fuse again, effectively removing the fuse from the circuit altogether. That is why the insurance inspectors removed all fuses from the panel of a burnt house during post-fire inspections.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 09:36:50 PM
Were reusable fuses a thing?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on May 29, 2016, 09:50:41 PM
There exists circuit breakers in the shape of a fuse, with a reset button. Those are meant to be used instead of fuses. What I'm referring to is real fuses that have blown and there are no spares around. Instead of going to the store, they just put a coin in the back to bridge the contacts in the socket. Very dangerous.

I have also seen 30 amp fuses used where 15 amp ones would be needed. Also dangerous. Circuit breakers solve those problems.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 29, 2016, 09:52:53 PM
There exists circuit breakers in the shape of a fuse, with a reset button. Those are meant to be used instead of fuses. What I'm referring to is real fuses that have blown and there are no spares around. Instead of going to the store, they just put a coin in the back to bridge the contacts in the socket. Very dangerous.

I have also seen 30 amp fuses used where 15 amp ones would be needed. Also dangerous. Circuit breakers solve those problems.
Problems come when you get a short circuit or when the current gets too high for the resistance of the penny creating heat, And possibly melting anything nearby, causing a short circuit or a house fire.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 29, 2016, 11:58:27 PM
Oh yeah I have some inline medium base fuse holders that are like a j box mounted format, and there's an on off switch. I have wired it with 14g romex and a 15a screw in fuse. It serves as a supply for my experimental stuff so I'll just trip the Edison base breaker and not the room breaker.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on May 30, 2016, 02:34:31 AM
And do you have GFCI/GFI sockets there?

Not sockets alone, but all circuits accessible via socket have to be GFCI (aka RCD) protected with sensitivity 30mA or below.
It does not mater, where the RCD is placed, but most installations have them in the main electrical panel.

Many people do not want to pay for more RCD's, which is still fine according to the code. For that limitation the best way I see is to use it for only the socket circuits, leave the lighting without the RCD (it is not required there).
Many electricians install it just on the main input, claiming it protects as well the lighting circuit, so therefore it "should be safer". Well,the electrical installation alone maybe, but the complete house isn't at all: When a hot watter kettle spills the water, it trips the common RCD and the complete house remains without any light. Then it is a question of time, when someone injures because of that...

Generally I do not like any common protection for many circuits: It goes against why the circuits are separated in the first place (= when fault happens, isolate that fault with least impact on the rest).
With the present material availability, I see the optimal method I see is to use the integrated circuit breaker + RCD for each circuit.They are not that much more expensive than a usual circuit breaker, while keeps the eventual fault isolated...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 30, 2016, 09:32:46 AM
And do you have GFCI/GFI sockets there?

Not sockets alone, but all circuits accessible via socket have to be GFCI (aka RCD) protected with sensitivity 30mA or below.
It does not mater, where the RCD is placed, but most installations have them in the main electrical panel.

Many people do not want to pay for more RCD's, which is still fine according to the code. For that limitation the best way I see is to use it for only the socket circuits, leave the lighting without the RCD (it is not required there).
Many electricians install it just on the main input, claiming it protects as well the lighting circuit, so therefore it "should be safer". Well,the electrical installation alone maybe, but the complete house isn't at all: When a hot watter kettle spills the water, it trips the common RCD and the complete house remains without any light. Then it is a question of time, when someone injures because of that...

Generally I do not like any common protection for many circuits: It goes against why the circuits are separated in the first place (= when fault happens, isolate that fault with least impact on the rest).
With the present material availability, I see the optimal method I see is to use the integrated circuit breaker + RCD for each circuit.They are not that much more expensive than a usual circuit breaker, while keeps the eventual fault isolated...
How long do RCDs last? GFCI sockets here last about 10-30 years before they don't work anymore and are not up to code.
The reason every house has at least one "bad" GFCI is because they still provide power and the owners don't want the hassle of replacing an outlet for something they hopefully will never need.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 30, 2016, 12:19:43 PM
Quick update; We now have 3 LED chandalier lights in the ceiling fan with the lone CFL.
They are also Feit Electric bulbs.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: hannahs lights on May 30, 2016, 03:14:45 PM
In my house we have upstairs and downstairs lights on separate 5 amp circuits wired in 1.5 mm cable sockrts upstairs are on a ring main wired in 2.5 mm cable fused at ,30 amps. Lounge ring main 30 amp dining room and Hannahs shack on 15 amp radial  kitchen half on spur from upstairs ring other half on same circuit as dinning room oh and I have 3 sockets on 15 amp fuse in my entertainment room AKA Hannahs private space
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 30, 2016, 06:02:38 PM
The system since 70s to this day is like :

Power input into lowest floor --> power company protections main for building --> power company protections for each user --> meter --> user panel with user's main breaker



The main power company potections use one-time cartridges with high interruption capacity - sand filled. They are slow-blow and rated so that the user's main breaker will allways trip before them. They are there in case there is a short circuit in the input to the user panel before the main breaker (damage to main cable) or in the meter, and to prevent users from swapping up their main breakers and overloading the grid

Officially they are supposed to be in a box with the power company's seal, the home owner is not allowed to access them

In reality, in most older (up to 80s) homes the box is not sealed, and the users do tamper with them occasionally. A common reason why they blow "and need tampering" is users swapping up the main breaker so it won't trip when they overload, or users connecting a circuit for a big load (most commonly water heaters) from before the main breaker



The user panel breakers are rewirable - You pull out the cartridge, connect a stretch of new fuse wire between the terminals, and plug it back in

In later years there appeared breakers that fit in the user fuse holders in place of the cartridge

I disassembled one of those replacement breakers - a BBC (the company is known as ABB nowadays) PicoSTOTZ - im not impressed. Contacts dont open very far apart, and the arc extinguishing measures are inferior to what is found in DIN rail breakers. It probably would work for the small short circuit currents in a house wired entirely with 1.5, but i would not trust this thing to open any significant short circuit, atleast without exploding while doing that..

I have somewhere a Soviet made version too, those are screw in shape and allmost fit an ordinary E27 socket, except the base contact is longer then in a lamp. The Soviet things are scary. The mechanics get stuck simply from pressing the reset/release buttons a few times, and definitely do if you press both buttons together, sometimes rendering the thing stuck for good in some middle position. The opening contact is a double contact type, so even after the bridgeing part is away from the main contacts, they are still next to each other. No arc extinguishing measures present at all. The trip mechanics are very rough and there are few things that can randomly fail and get stuck when its time to trip



In place of the coin hack were other variations :

In the rewirable fuses, users would connect a piece of Cu wire in the cartridge instead of the fuse wire, or would jumper around the fuse holder (add a wire connecting directly between the top and bottom terminals). I seen a 50s home in BeerSheva, the entrance floor panel there (multiple lighting circuits of the entrance and basement floors) looked like : Fuse holders of various sizes, in all of them the cartridges are missing, and there are bundles of 1.5mm^2 Cu wire stuck between the terminals around the cartridge

In the power company fuses, users would empty the cartridge (spill the sand out) and put in Cu wire, or wrap the blown cartridge as is with Al foil and screw it back in

With the Al foil, some peeps tried to use the Al coated paper from cigarette boxes... The metal in those things is very thin, and it does act as a fuse. Often setting fire to the paper while doing so



Lower floor of a 70s flats building (of a friend of mine). The panel contains the main power company fuses for the building and for the staircase/shelter, and a user panel for the staircase/shelter (that was worked on by some bright spark)

http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2438&pos=43&pid=59845

60s fuse panel (found on the internet). The breaker box is a later addition, originally the sleeved wires from below (from the meter) were going straight into the fuse panel. Labels below fuses are (starting from left) : "Water Heater" "Appliances" "Appliances" "Lights" "Lights"

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2ngqssj.jpg



Well made RCDs normally last for decades - Many 70s RCDs are still around and are fine

I seen RCD failures and had the one in my panel fail too. The most common failure mode is random tripping for no reason, or being impossible to reset after it tripped once for a real reason. starts with trips once in a month, then becomes more common, then one day you simply cant reset it at all, even when it is out of the panel and not connected to anything - It would mechanically not click into the "on" position anymore

The "randomly tripping for no reason" thing is hard to troubleshoot, as the exact same behavior happens when the RCD is ok and is tripping for a reason. The way i troubleshooted it when mine started random tripping - First i measured many times the circuits on it for leaks. When i was not able to find anything, i replaced the RCD, and the tripping stopped

One common reason for RCD and any breaker failures is building debris that lands from the wall materials above the panel at time of construction or when messing with the wall and the panel is open. The dirt fallson the breakers and gets inside them into the mechanics, probably through the upper hole for the wire

Some years back i was called (as IT) to check for an office full of computers that blew all at once. I traced it down to a damaged 3 Phase RCD, that closed the Phase contacts but not the Neutral. The panel was full with phenomenal quantities of cement dust, some of which got inside the RCD and happened to stick on the Neutral switching contact pads, keeping them apart while the Phase contacts closed properly. This probably happened after the RCD tripped (for a reason), then a bit of dirt got to where it got, and somebody reset the RCD with the dirt inside



Code here requires RCD for all circuits at home including lighting. The most common setup is as Medved says, main current limiting breaker --> one RCD for all --> individual circuit breakers. Few peeps do install separate RCDs for separate circuits



Last night i had an event with the RCD tripping :

2AM everything is still fine, i switch off the computer, the light, and go to sleep. Morning the RCD is down. Something happened in the mid of the night..

The fault can be traced by measuring resistance L-PE and N-PE in each circuit (from the panel, with the power off). Measure DC voltage first (just in case, to not thunderbolt attack my multimeter with the charge from some Y capacitor somewhere, in Ohms measurement mode), then measure Ohms

L-PE in some circuits shows infinity, in some capacitance charging up and then infinity, and in some resistances. But it is possible that measuring like this is actually measuring a circuit like : L on the tested circuit - some load resistance (primary of a transformer or motor, ...) - N on the tested circuit - common N in panel - N on another circuit - Short is in the other circuit. So without separating the N's in the panel the results of this test are not much useable..

N-PE (all N are on the Neutral bar in the panel) shows single Ohms

Take out all the wires from N bar, measure each to PE. The offending circuit is one of the lighting circuits

Take apart the connections in the boxes this circuit goes to, measure each N to PE. the offender was a Fluorescent light in the bathroom. This also explains why L-PE showed nothing. The short was touching metal short N-PE. To the multimeter (measuring at very low voltage), the Fluorescent lamp and starter appear as open

The problem was, the metal edge of the back of the lantern was pressed hard into the N wire where it comes out of the wall, and it was punched through at the sharp point of the edge. It was installed there since about 1999..2000, The wire was probably pressed all along, but not punched through yet. I banged this light accidentally a few days before while replacing the shower curtain rod, and apparently this was the last push it took to punch through the isolation of the wire completely

I have a guess why it tripped the RCD last night and not allready back then :

Maybe the wire did not make very good contact in the point where it was punched through, and the small N-PE voltage present did not cause 30mA of leakage current

A momentary high load (fridge compressor starting ?) made the current there momentarily rise, possibly making some power dissipate there and improve the contact conductivity with each subsequent current pulse (think oxide layer on the lantern's metal breaking down ?)

After a few 10's times of such pushes, the contact eventually became good enough to conduct 30mA at the peak N-PE voltage, and that is when it tripped

Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 30, 2016, 06:52:38 PM
What's N-PE and L-PE?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on May 30, 2016, 08:06:16 PM
L - Phase
N - Neutral
PE - Earth

so, i poked the multimeter into L and PE or N and PE
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on May 30, 2016, 08:30:13 PM
L - Phase
N - Neutral
PE - Earth

so, i poked the multimeter into L and PE or N and PE
That's odd. Everyone here uses L for Line, N for Neutral and G for Earth/Ground.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 01, 2016, 02:45:36 AM
@longevity of RCD's: Here the RCD's are not used that long, the code for a long time treated them only as an "additional protection" device, so one of the method considered "main protection" had to be used anyway:
Either PE connected to Neutral and so relying on the overcurrent protection to isolate the faulty equipment. This required grounding with so low impedance, it maintains safe voltage even when there is flowing maximum current of the outpet circuit breaker (so 10 or 15A at that time). With these the PE was grounded, as well as connected to Neutral, very frequently even combined with the Neutral into one conductor (PEN) in a form of TN-C (it went really to all sockets). This wiring had one specific: The PEN wire was required to be a solid wire from the panel to the last socket it served, so to connect an outlet, you have to strip longer section of the insulation and put that wire iunderneath both PE and N scews of the socket, without breaking/cutting the wire.
The other method, used for places with not that good grounding, has the PE not grounded, but in the main input is a special breaker, which monitors the voltage on that wire vs real ground and shuts off, when it exceeded 50V (maximum tolerance). The drawback was, things naturally grounded (equipment connected to piping, buried metal construction parts or so) was not possible to protect that way and there the only option was to ensure the grounding was made good enough (to conform to the overcurrent style).
Both of these methods were explicitely listed in the code, so one of them had to be always used, so it did not allow the RCD to be treated as a protection device.

It was only in 90's, when the Code changed it's phrasing to the more generic"automatic disconnection from a power source", which in fact meant the RCD becomes legal (it just a way of implementation of the "automatic power disconnection"; such as are the overcurrent or PE voltage monitor) as the main protection method.
Then only about in 2000 the RCD's became mandatory for the civil housings and it is only since that time, when they really become so wide spread to provide relevant reliability data. And it is not that long ago, so any overaged and so not working ones are not yet existent here.
The voltage monitors are in many places 50 years old or even older and still work well, at least those, that are regularly tested (it has a similar "test" button, connecting one of the line wires via a resistor to the PE to imitate the fault during the testing, as today's RCD's have).


L - Phase
N - Neutral
PE - Earth

so, i poked the multimeter into L and PE or N and PE
That's odd. Everyone here uses L for Line, N for Neutral and G for Earth/Ground.

There are systems, where the PE is not grounded, yet it is a part of the protection against presence of dangerous voltages on accessible metal parts. E.g. the voltage sensing method, or some insulated systems (mainly in hospitals,...), where the power source is not grounded, nor is the PE, yet interconnection of all accessible metal objects is required.
So to not confuse such safety interconnection with real grounding, the interconnection is called "PE" and not "Grounding".
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 01, 2016, 08:04:45 AM
The RCD failures i seen were not related much to their age

The one that failed in my panel was maybe 5 years old. The one i put in its place is a used 80s one, that still works to this day (passes the test button tests)

The one with the open Neutral in the office was maybe a few months new, it failed as result of abuse, and maybe not so good ingress protection design



The TN-C to the socket is a dangerous method - Broken PEN wire, without any additional fault, places 230V on the enclosures of all connected equipment

In addition, if there is some device that provides metal connection between PEN and outside Earth (like the washing machine) it is hard to predict what current will go there (through water pipes, ..) to the outside Earth in normal condition. And it will carry all the load current (possible from multiple apartments..) in case of broken PEN. I see a potential for fire there
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 01, 2016, 09:30:44 AM
The RCD failures i seen were not related much to their age

The one that failed in my panel was maybe 5 years old. The one i put in its place is a used 80s one, that still works to this day (passes the test button tests)

The one with the open Neutral in the office was maybe a few months new, it failed as result of abuse, and maybe not so good ingress protection design



The TN-C to the socket is a dangerous method - Broken PEN wire, without any additional fault, places 230V on the enclosures of all connected equipment

In addition, if there is some device that provides metal connection between PEN and outside Earth (like the washing machine) it is hard to predict what current will go there (through water pipes, ..) to the outside Earth in normal condition. And it will carry all the load current (possible from multiple apartments..) in case of broken PEN. I see a potential for fire there

And what's TN-C and PEN?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 01, 2016, 11:59:14 AM
And what's TN-C and PEN?

The "TN-C" is a power system nomenclature:
The first "T" means the power source is grounded by some of it's terminals.
The "N" means the principal protection of the accessible conductors (metal parts,...; those conductive, but not supposed to be connected to the electricity) by connecting them to a Neutral wire (so when a fault happens, this connection prevents a dangerous voltage from building up; indirectly it is the Ground, as the Neutral is grounded)
The "-C" means there is just a single conductor used for both functions: Power current Neutral connection (N) and the protection connection (PE), so the letters then are the combined "PE+N"="PEN".
In modern installations (according to the present standards) this common connection ends in the main breaker panel, where it gets separated to "N" wire (light blue per European standard) and "PE" wire (yellow/green and/or bare metal) wires, so becoming a "TN-S" system.

beside of that, the older installations were "TT" (so grounded power source, PE interconnection as the primary fault voltage buildup)
or in installation where a power interruption is by itself a safety hazard (the hospitals, magnetic cranes,...) "IT" (insulated source, PE interconnection to prevent dangerous voltage buildup), where a single insulation fault does not need the power to be immediately cut (an insulation monitor just sounds an alarm)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: hannahs lights on June 01, 2016, 03:36:36 PM
In the uk we have 2 systems one called PME where the neutral and earth are joined at the main incoming position also if power is overhead distribution every 7th pole has a conductor from neutral to an earth stake at the pole base. The other system is where the house earthing is via the metal sheath of the underground service cable the earth and neutral are separated completely. UK regulation state that earth and neutral are run as separated throughout the house or any other premises
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 01, 2016, 04:22:02 PM
We just have our own grounding below our breaker panel.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 01, 2016, 07:13:42 PM
When considering a safe Earthing practice, the following must be considered :

 - If Phase shorts to PE on an end device, good Earthing shall allow high short circuit currents to immediately trip the breaker. That means for example >160A on an ordinary 16A circuit in Europe, 300A on 15A circuit in the US, 320A on a ring circuit in UK

 - If short circuit current is not available due to resistance in the point of isolation breakdown, the Earthing shall keep the accessible metal at safe voltage

 - Single Conductor break fault should never cause unsafe voltage to appear on accessible metal

 - Currents through unintended paths (stray currents) may cause a fire if they heat conductors on their way there

From there, evolved 2 relatively safe systems (ones with Earthed supply Neutral) :



TN-C-S and TN-S :

Neutral is Earthed at the power source (secondary of HV to LV transformer), but Neutral and Earth are separate on the end circuits to which stuff is connected. In TN-C-S, the separation is normally in the most upstream panel on the user's premises. In TN-S, they are separate all the way from the transformer, with the only place where they are together is the transformer itself

The point where Neutral and Earth part their ways must be Earthed by itself (by connection to Earth rods in that location for example), so that a broken PEN conductor before this place cannot lead to dangerous voltages on PE conductors

In the US it is the Neutral bar in the user panel, to which both N's (white) and PE's (bare) are connected together

In Israel it is the main supply Neutral, which is connected by a jumper to a main Earthing busbar (big Copper bar), at the entrance to the panel. The jumper goes to the main Earthing bar, to which all local Earthing and Bonding are connected

In other places i dont know



T-T :

Neutral is Earthed at the transformer but nowhere else. It is supplied merely as Neutral to everywhere

Earthing is done ultimately by local Earthing electrode at the premises, which is not connected in any way to Neutral. Very low Earthing resistance (good Earthing) is required to provide high short circuit currents and keeping touchable voltages low if the current is too low, as there is no complete Copper path from the short circuit to the source Neutral as in TN-* systems



The unsafe variant is TN-C, which is present in places in many places from the (...) block - Russia and East Europe places. There Earth and Neutral are the same wire, maybe up to the entrance to the premises, maybe inside the premises too, without additional Earth connection where they separate into Neutral and PE. In the worst case, they are combined right up to the wall socket, with a jumper between N and PE holes of the socket

This is sometimes done in the US too, and possibly in other places, as a hack - not as a legitimate repair :

Old house, no Earthing provided in circuits. Plugging 3 lamp receptacle tester into a receptacle shows that there is no Earth, and plugging a PC (or verious other electronics) in there makes their metal enclosures shock a little. To fool the receptacle tester (to fool inspections, ..) or to prevent the Pichu from the computer, some bright spark connects a jumper from PE hole to N inside the receptacle

The 3 lamp tester now shows that everything is ok

The computer is not shocking anymore

But let there be a bad connection somewhere in the N wire, then without any additional fault, the computer will now not give a little Pichu, but possibly kill whoever touches it

There is absolutely NO other electrical system in which a disconnected/broken wire alone, without presence of an actual isolation fault at the same time, can cause dangerous voltages to appear on touchable metal stuff that is supposed to be Earthed

Additional concern would be about somebody doing repairs and swapping N and L. It is not very nice thing to do in building wiring, as lamp switches now open the N instead of L. But for plugged in appliances it does not matter much. Except now, the jumper connects L to the PE hole in the socket, so everything metal is shocking at direct big Phase, without any fault present at all
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 01, 2016, 07:22:14 PM
And I wonder why RCD breakers are unheard of here.
The most common thing related to an RCD breaker is a GFCI breaker or a GFCI outlet upstream of more outlets.
This topic has really been off-topic compared to the original question, How much LED lighting do you have?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 01, 2016, 08:23:02 PM
That are different names to the same functionality.. Tho for what i know the implementation is different as well, US ones use Elctronics while ours are entiely Electromechanical

My home : No LEDs in AC-powered lighting. Few LED lamps and strings in collection. Lots of discrete component LEDs as in electronic components laying around
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 01, 2016, 08:45:30 PM
That are different names to the same functionality.. Tho for what i know the implementation is different as well, US ones use Elctronics while ours are entiely Electromechanical

My home : No LEDs in AC-powered lighting. Few LED lamps and strings in collection. Lots of discrete component LEDs as in electronic components laying around
Me too, I have at least 300 of a blend of White, Purple, Assorted color, Salvaged, Color changing...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 02, 2016, 12:38:29 AM
That are different names to the same functionality.. Tho for what i know the implementation is different as well, US ones use Elctronics while ours are entiely Electromechanical

If it is only electromechanical or if an electronic is needed depends on the required sensitivity. 30mA, so the requirements in the EU for sockets accessible to untrained people (homes, general offices; harsher industrial environments do not have to meet that, but then all people allowed to access the premise have to be trained in the basics of an electrical safety, at least per our regulation), is still possible to reach just using an electromechanical implementation, so indeed the vast majority of RCD's is just electromechanical.
When better sensitivity is needed, the plain electromechanical system would get false tripped by noise and/or capacitive currents, so an electronic filtering out just the mains frequency resistive phase current component (only that is caused by faults and the sensitivity level applies to this) requires an electronic to really reach that selectivity to real faults. What I've see, in the US 10mA or 6mA sensitivities are quite common in the "GFCI sockets" and that already requires the advanced filtering. Usually the system has two triggers: One electromechanical set at the 30mA or so and then a second one electronic filtered with lower sensitivity threshold (the 10 or 6mA). The main reason is, the electronic has longer delay (to really reach the required selectivity), so the electromagnetic trigger provides there the fast response for the higher fault current levels.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: ace100w120v on June 02, 2016, 07:59:00 PM
Conversion to LED is progressing, now with TCP 5000K 8.5w A19 shape bulbs for the latest 6 sockets converted.  Just about everything will be 5000K once I'm done.  Much nicer than the dingy 2700K CFLs (don't get me wrong, actual incandescent is second to none) or the too-blue-for-many-places 6500K daylight CFLs. 
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 02, 2016, 08:13:13 PM
Conversion to LED is progressing, now with TCP 5000K 8.5w A19 shape bulbs for the latest 6 sockets converted.  Just about everything will be 5000K once I'm done.  Much nicer than the dingy 2700K CFLs (don't get me wrong, actual incandescent is second to none) or the too-blue-for-many-places 6500K daylight CFLs. 
Everyone except me is afraid of anything other than 2700K to 3000K.
For them to handle 5000K, The light would have to be super bright.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 03, 2016, 08:50:26 AM
When better sensitivity is needed, the plain electromechanical system would get false tripped by noise and/or capacitive currents

There is the thing when you loop the circuit 2 times through a 30mA RCD (3 Phase RCD for 1 Phase circuit) to get 15mA sensitivity. And it still works correctly. I'd expect that 15mA or less still is reachable by EM construction

And in the US the GF receptacle only controls a limited part of the circuit (itself + maybe few downstream receptacles), so sees much less leakage than our 30mA RCDs that typically controll an entire house

I think that they use electronics as a means to make everything tiny to make it fit in a wall receptacle box. So the CT can be smaller as it only supplies the inout to some logic and not driving directly the tripping solenoid
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 03, 2016, 10:43:54 AM
Another thing about for GFCI receptacles is you can get the ones which the indicator light turns off when it is tripped, And the ones which have the indicator light turn on when it is tripped. I always think the latter if more dangerous because the light would have to bypass the GFCI protection to light.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 04, 2016, 02:46:59 AM
Another thing about for GFCI receptacles is you can get the ones which the indicator light turns off when it is tripped, And the ones which have the indicator light turn on when it is tripped. I always think the latter if more dangerous because the light would have to bypass the GFCI protection to light.

It does not have to bypass anything (that is really not allowed), but it is controlled by extra "diagnostic" contacts (which are fully insulated and close and/or open, when the GFCI trips) and connected upstream before the GFCI.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 04, 2016, 08:40:58 AM
Another thing about for GFCI receptacles is you can get the ones which the indicator light turns off when it is tripped, And the ones which have the indicator light turn on when it is tripped. I always think the latter if more dangerous because the light would have to bypass the GFCI protection to light.

It does not have to bypass anything (that is really not allowed), but it is controlled by extra "diagnostic" contacts (which are fully insulated and close and/or open, when the GFCI trips) and connected upstream before the GFCI.

Can you draw a schematic? I don't get it.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 04, 2016, 09:37:51 AM
Normally the GFCI contains a set of two power contacts, switching the Line and Neutral. The mechanism is so, the contacts are held closed by a kind of latch, while a spring pushes them open. Once a fault is detected, the latch releases, so that spring opens the contacts.
Now if there is the "diagnostic", the contact carrier just carries another small contact and this contact controls the power to the indicator: If it is in the position the main contacts are closed, the auxiliary is open, so there is no power going to the indicator lamp. Once the thing get triggered and the contract carrier makes the main powr contacts open, the auxiliary contact closes, so turns the power for the indicator ON, so the indicator lights.

In other words it is nothing else than another contact switching just the indicator lamp, but that contact is mechanically coupled to the main GFCI mechanism, so it just responds to it's mechanical position, nothing else. So a contact in series with a small lamp...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 04, 2016, 10:05:35 AM
Normally the GFCI contains a set of two power contacts, switching the Line and Neutral. The mechanism is so, the contacts are held closed by a kind of latch, while a spring pushes them open. Once a fault is detected, the latch releases, so that spring opens the contacts.
Now if there is the "diagnostic", the contact carrier just carries another small contact and this contact controls the power to the indicator: If it is in the position the main contacts are closed, the auxiliary is open, so there is no power going to the indicator lamp. Once the thing get triggered and the contract carrier makes the main powr contacts open, the auxiliary contact closes, so turns the power for the indicator ON, so the indicator lights.

In other words it is nothing else than another contact switching just the indicator lamp, but that contact is mechanically coupled to the main GFCI mechanism, so it just responds to it's mechanical position, nothing else. So a contact in series with a small lamp...



Thats one option, but i think the aux contact is not necessary

(https://www.lighting-gallery.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs33.postimg.org%2F8m4t628kv%2Ftrip.png&hash=5543d9f5957922c907f940ee39ae55ec89570557)

The lamp current must be << alowed diff current. For a Neon at <1mA this would work
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 04, 2016, 10:14:51 AM
Normally the GFCI contains a set of two power contacts, switching the Line and Neutral. The mechanism is so, the contacts are held closed by a kind of latch, while a spring pushes them open. Once a fault is detected, the latch releases, so that spring opens the contacts.
Now if there is the "diagnostic", the contact carrier just carries another small contact and this contact controls the power to the indicator: If it is in the position the main contacts are closed, the auxiliary is open, so there is no power going to the indicator lamp. Once the thing get triggered and the contract carrier makes the main powr contacts open, the auxiliary contact closes, so turns the power for the indicator ON, so the indicator lights.

In other words it is nothing else than another contact switching just the indicator lamp, but that contact is mechanically coupled to the main GFCI mechanism, so it just responds to it's mechanical position, nothing else. So a contact in series with a small lamp...



Thats one option, but i think the aux contact is not necessary

(https://www.lighting-gallery.net/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs33.postimg.org%2F8m4t628kv%2Ftrip.png&hash=5543d9f5957922c907f940ee39ae55ec89570557)

The lamp current must be << alowed diff current. For a Neon at <1mA this would work
Now I get it. And you just replace the neon indicator with an LED.
I guess I was thinking of if there happened to be a short a fault in the indicator lamp, But I suppose there are resistors to limit the current.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 04, 2016, 10:24:39 AM
In Medved's option that can be a LED

In my option it cant :

LED takes atleast few mA to light up, that is allready about the same current as what it takes to trip the GFCI. In my design, when the GFCI is on it is shorting the Neon and one resistor, so the current in the other is more than before. The GFCI would trip all the time from the current in that resistor alone

For a <1mA Neon its about 1mA leakage current, so acceptable for a GFCI which trip current is 10mA (and is not precise to 10.0mA, so add or take 1mA does not make big difference)

It is doable with LED and some more electronics though
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 04, 2016, 10:29:48 AM
In Medved's option that can be a LED

In my option it cant :

LED takes atleast few mA to light up, that is allready about the same current as what it takes to trip the GFCI. In my design, when the GFCI is on it is shorting the Neon and one resistor, so the current in the other is more than before. The GFCI would trip all the time from the current in that resistor alone

For a <1mA Neon its about 1mA leakage current, so acceptable for a GFCI which trip current is 10mA (and is not precise to 10.0mA, so add or take 1mA does not make big difference)

It is doable with LED and some more electronics though
I have never heard of a GFCI outlet that doesn't use LED.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 04, 2016, 10:48:34 AM
Actually thinking some more, there are significant problems with my circuit

 - It is not reliable. If there is a leakage between the output side and Earth, then the Neon won't light up when it is tripped

 - It lets through leakage. When it is tripped, the same 1mA of the Neon can go to the output too, that is supposed to be disconnected. less than 1mA won't harm anyone, but it may well not be allowed by standards to leak so much in tripped position (1mA is quite a lot)

 - It may not be protected well against surges. If ordinary 1/4W resistors are used, then a surge on the input may flash across the resistor so the separation between input and output may not be sufficient

So its really only the way Medved describes it
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 05, 2016, 12:23:31 PM
Actually if such indication would be on the line side, the ground leakage (which was, what likely triggered the device) won't affect the indicator functionality.
But even when such connection may indicate it is open in a cheap way (well, sometimes, as written before about the actual faulty leakages; I have assumed you mean something like that), definitely such leakage path is not acceptable at all.

The diagnostic contacts are one of the most common add-on features available with practically all better (so not the ones with the "being the cheapest on the market") makers of the electrical protection equipment (circuit breakers, GFCI's,...). Other common features are remote tripping (mainly for breakers; most often used with "emergency stop" buttons), sometimes even motorized arming (if the overloads and/or short circuits are normaly occuring there - e.g. open wires for some moving equipment with sliding collectors, crushing machinery motor overload protections,...).
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 05, 2016, 01:07:02 PM
Actually if such indication would be on the line side, the ground leakage (which was, what likely triggered the device) won't affect the indicator functionality.
But even when such connection may indicate it is open in a cheap way (well, sometimes, as written before about the actual faulty leakages; I have assumed you mean something like that), definitely such leakage path is not acceptable at all.

The diagnostic contacts are one of the most common add-on features available with practically all better (so not the ones with the "being the cheapest on the market") makers of the electrical protection equipment (circuit breakers, GFCI's,...). Other common features are remote tripping (mainly for breakers; most often used with "emergency stop" buttons), sometimes even motorized arming (if the overloads and/or short circuits are normaly occuring there - e.g. open wires for some moving equipment with sliding collectors, crushing machinery motor overload protections,...).
I have never seen anything like that...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 06, 2016, 07:33:40 AM
The problem is, the way GFCI's are made in the US as simple sockets, do push them to use the cheapest possible solutions..



Those things dont appear in home grade equipment, but more in advanced (and usually bigger) breakers, that often have option to set the tripping currents/times, and other features

But even the ordinary DIN breakers have preovisions for such stuff. (dont know about US breakers). A 3 Phase breaker appear as 3 single breaker with connected handles. But inside there is a 2nd Mechanical interconnection of the tripping system. That is, when one trips, it does not take down the others by pushing their handles down, but by internally pulling the release of the spring in the others. The breakers will trip even if you hold the handle up to prevent it from going down

In a similar way, a "tripper" can be added to a breaker, which is a small electromagnet that moves that mechanical connector inside - Apply power, get trip..

Another option how to implement a "tripper" is - Thats how the emergency stop buttons in the labs at my school were done (built in 1980) - With the use of some resistor or inductor that takes >30mA and wiring it around an RCD, in a same way as a test button is
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 06, 2016, 11:24:04 AM
A very unsafe way to do that is to have a button which shorts the breaker out, But then you have the risk of causing a fire, Which defeats the reason for the breaker.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 06, 2016, 02:31:05 PM
That oes not defeat the reasn for the breaker, but there is another problem..

Breakers wear when they trip at high currents, from the arcing as the contacts open, that burns them off, and contaminates the isolating surfaces with conductive coating. The breaker's life is rated in trips. Breakers are rated to trip ONCE at full rated current. That is, if a breaker was rated 6000A and it tripped at 6000A, you are supposed to replace it immediately, instead of resetting it. For relatively low current trips (overloads, ...) the arc is way smaller so the breaker can last for many trips

In reality breakers are chosen (when they are chosen properly) so that they are rated way higher than the expected short circuit current, so for example 6000A rated breaker on a circuit with ~1500A max current (typical figure for homes in 230V-world). So unless abused, they can last for few decades with a few short circuit events in that time

And the button, it would probably weld to permanently-on after the 1st such use...



With the RCD it is simple and safe - As RCD trips to leakage current, all you need is a button that switches on a load that takes >30mA (for reliability, lets say 300mA) between Phase and Earth. The current is small, not enough to damage any equipment, but appropriate to trip the RCD



Another version of the safety button does not rely on breakers at all. It is a self latching relay. The emergency buttons are all Normally Closed type and wired in series, and in series with the relay coil. Pushing either one cause the release of the relay. Switching it on can be done with an ON button in the panel, or by pressing the relay by hand in relays that have a built in button
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 06, 2016, 04:05:28 PM
A short circuit is nothing that should be there intentionally. By itseelf it means some risk the breaker won't respond and then you have a real safety problem. So shorting and/or overloading the branch in order to trip a breaker is really not acceptable.

With the RCD it may technically work, but bypassing an RCD by anything isn't allowed either. If the RCD trips due to real fault, such bypassing switch may make the once disconnected part back alive. That scenario isn't as hypothetic as it may sound, let's imagine some failure, where the phase reaches an unearthed conductive surface (it could be damaged tool,...). Then the user touches it and gets shock from it, probably the electricity "grab him" (the uncontrolled muscle tension makes it impossible for his will to release). After some time (a second or even less) the RCD trips and disconnects the power (that is it's purpose). But in the meantime he screams, so someone pushes the STOP button. And if that would bypass the RCD, it would mean that poor guy will get another jolt, this time from the tripping circuit from the button.
So no way to make such bypass except really the TEST button inside of the RCD (I think this has a separate contact in series with the test circuit, so once the RCD has tripped, even the TEST current can not flow; but I'm not 100% sure if that is mandatory for the internal RCD design, the motivation could well be to protect the test tripping resistor from overheating due to external current leakages - like miswired Neutrals or so)

The latching relay has one drawback: It consumes steady power (so heats up) and because it will be permanently energized, the core may get magnetized so, it may not release even when the current is interrupted. I've seen this approach on circuits, where the relay is used for normal power control of that device (start-stop control of a machine,...)
The breaker tripper consumes no power, while it is all the time ready to act, so it is used mainly on circuits, which are permanently powered.
Of course, when the button functionality is really exceptionally important, both ways are combined (have seen once, combined with a cover door interlock contact)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 06, 2016, 05:56:18 PM
I think the opening contact that disconnect the resistor inside RCD indeed is there to save the resistor if the RCD is not tripping. And it does not een need to be a miswired circuit..

The test resitor is conenced across the RCD diagonally. The RCD can be wired with supply from below or supply from above - It works both ways, and in different countries there are different norms - In Israel and i think most of Europe it is from below, while in Russia (and maybe somewhere else too) it is from above. That means that in one setup the test connects the resistor to L-out N-in, in other setup to L-in N-out

Now imagine that the RCD is wired with the resistor on L-in, there is a fault in the circuit that the RCD tripped for (short of something to PE), then for whatever unknown reason, the user push Test. (nevermind that the RCD allready is down). Without an opening contact that would go up in smoke..



The version with the "test button"-like wiring is when it takes L-out to N-in. This way, pressing the button when the RCD is tripped only connects N-in to the circuit, so no voltage there, and no danger of that 2nd shock scenario (unless there is some other fault with upstream N being disconnected)

The other version is similar but with the button connecting a load between L-out and PE, not L-out and N-in



Last but not least, making a hard short circuit is legitimate way to break the circuit - if such act is justified. For example to disconnect the circuit if somebody is getting a shock, paperclip on plug pins and push the plug into another socket on the same panel (a good short circuit usually trips the main too if it is not set too high) may be the fastest thing you can do..
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on June 06, 2016, 07:18:56 PM
But even the ordinary DIN breakers have preovisions for such stuff. (dont know about US breakers). A 3 Phase breaker appear as 3 single breaker with connected handles. But inside there is a 2nd Mechanical interconnection of the tripping system. That is, when one trips, it does not take down the others by pushing their handles down, but by internally pulling the release of the spring in the others. The breakers will trip even if you hold the handle up to prevent it from going down

Some standard circuit breakers here function that way. Some even have a single handle but a double-width body and are internally mechanically interconnected. I have one here that is as you described only double pole. However, it is two distinct breakers that are only connected with the handles. The connecting rod is so loose that one can trip without the other (I miswired something plugged in a duplex split receptacle and found out).

Regarding tripping when the handle is held in the on position, here we have breaker "locks" that prevent the handle being moved to the off position. It is usually removable with a screwdriver so not a proper lock per se but prevents people from accidentally cutting power to emergency circuits (exit lighting, fire alarm panels, etc). A screw driver is necessary to reset them if they trip.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: veryhighonoutput on June 06, 2016, 08:26:53 PM
Yes the whole inside my house is led even the 12 bulb Chandler but I use 40w clear incandescent in the 2 front door lights and 3 40watt clear candle bulbs in light post seeing my neighbor pays the bill on those I leave on all night But my work shop I use 96" pgs and preheat I know it kind defeats the purpose of saving electricity but I am not in there to often.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 08, 2016, 10:41:18 PM
Yes the whole inside my house is led even the 12 bulb Chandler but I use 40w clear incandescent in the 2 front door lights and 3 40watt clear candle bulbs in light post seeing my neighbor pays the bill on those I leave on all night But my work shop I use 96" pgs and preheat I know it kind defeats the purpose of saving electricity but I am not in there to often.
You use Power Grooves?
You should save them, There are only so many in the world, Unless they have a reproduction.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 09, 2016, 05:57:01 PM
"kind defeats the purpose of saving electricity"

To save electricity you dont need lamps, or even wiring to them

When you need the light, use the power that it takes to make this light

 - One thing is being really wasteful, trying to illuminate a workroom in the garage with the "botique style" underdriven Incandescents at 2000K color temp and <5 Lm/W

 - Other thing is using ANY fairly enough efficient lighting. Everyone seems to forget that the step between different types of energy saving lighting (that includes ALL FL) is not that huge... ~50 Lm/W "worst old Fluorescents" vs 80Lm/W brand new typical LED panel troffers. Its nothing like the difference of 15 vs 50 (normal Incanescent vs worst Fluorescent). More often than not, its not the power difference worth bothering about
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 09, 2016, 09:13:49 PM
"kind defeats the purpose of saving electricity"

To save electricity you dont need lamps, or even wiring to them

When you need the light, use the power that it takes to make this light

 - One thing is being really wasteful, trying to illuminate a workroom in the garage with the "botique style" underdriven Incandescents at 2000K color temp and <5 Lm/W

 - Other thing is using ANY fairly enough efficient lighting. Everyone seems to forget that the step between different types of energy saving lighting (that includes ALL FL) is not that huge... ~50 Lm/W "worst old Fluorescents" vs 80Lm/W brand new typical LED panel troffers. Its nothing like the difference of 15 vs 50 (normal Incanescent vs worst Fluorescent). More often than not, its not the power difference worth bothering about
I thought underdriven incandescents were more efficient.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 10, 2016, 01:30:23 AM
I thought underdriven incandescents were more efficient.

No way. And the dependence is very steep: A lamp powered at 50% power (via dimmer,...) gives off barely 25% of the light compare to the full power operation. With 10% power (so about 25% rms voltage) it is just some percent or so, with the typical 5% minimum power settings for the dimmers (so about 10..15% voltage) it means way below 1% of the light output.


Even a normal incandescent temperature means the radiation peak is in the IR, the visible is reached only by the "tail". And in that "tail" is really just a small part of the radiated power, that is the main reason for the generally low efficacy.
But when you reduce the power, so the temperature, the peak shifts deeper into the IR (beside becoming generally lower), so way smaller part of the "tail" remains in the visible, so the radiated power in visible gets way smaller, so the already low efficacy gets way lower.

This is the main reason, why all lamp designers tried to increase the filament temperature as much as possible without shortening the life too much.
It is the main reason, why incandescents are designed for just 750 or 1000h life and not longer: Longer life requires lower operating temperature and that means lower efficacy.
Exactly the same reason is, why the halogens are more efficient: The internal chemistry greatly slows down the filament evaporation, so it allows it to be operated hotter for the similar (or even slightly longer) operating life. It is the higher temperature, what makes the lamp more efficient.
All are optimized to a minimum overall cost of the light, even counting for a penalty for the lamp failure and replacement work.

So if you intentionally underdrive the lamp, you waste all the effort made to boost the efficacy. So you may boost the life to 30+years when operating at 50% power, but you lowerr the efficacy to about one half or so. So for the same light you need twice as high real power. Well, with present bulb and electricity costs, it means your light becomes twice as expensive compare to when operate the lamps at rated power and replace them once a year (assume "standardized" cycle).

So all the "buttons" and "long life lamps for home use" may increase the lamp life, but cost a lot on the lamp efficacy, so are nothing more than just a false economy scam.


And the lowering efficacy at lower power is the main reason, why it is so difficult to make the dimmable LED ballasts compatible with the incandescents, mainly to ensure the dimmer operation: It means where the incandescent consumes about 10% of the full power, so 10W instead of 100W, the LED consumes about 1% of it's full power, so about 0.15W or so (assume 15W LED as a replacement for a 100W incandescent). Well, the ballast will for sure operate well with a 10W load, but the 0.15W is really not manageable via triacs... Therefore the dimming range uses to be limited to about 5..10% of the LED power, what means about 10% of the light output. But that equals to the incandescent operating at about 30% power settings, far from the minimum...

Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 10, 2016, 07:12:58 AM
I thought underdriven incandescents were more efficient.

No way. And the dependence is very steep: A lamp powered at 50% power (via dimmer,...) gives off barely 25% of the light compare to the full power operation. With 10% power (so about 25% rms voltage) it is just some percent or so, with the typical 5% minimum power settings for the dimmers (so about 10..15% voltage) it means way below 1% of the light output.


Even a normal incandescent temperature means the radiation peak is in the IR, the visible is reached only by the "tail". And in that "tail" is really just a small part of the radiated power, that is the main reason for the generally low efficacy.
But when you reduce the power, so the temperature, the peak shifts deeper into the IR (beside becoming generally lower), so way smaller part of the "tail" remains in the visible, so the radiated power in visible gets way smaller, so the already low efficacy gets way lower.

This is the main reason, why all lamp designers tried to increase the filament temperature as much as possible without shortening the life too much.
It is the main reason, why incandescents are designed for just 750 or 1000h life and not longer: Longer life requires lower operating temperature and that means lower efficacy.
Exactly the same reason is, why the halogens are more efficient: The internal chemistry greatly slows down the filament evaporation, so it allows it to be operated hotter for the similar (or even slightly longer) operating life. It is the higher temperature, what makes the lamp more efficient.
All are optimized to a minimum overall cost of the light, even counting for a penalty for the lamp failure and replacement work.

So if you intentionally underdrive the lamp, you waste all the effort made to boost the efficacy. So you may boost the life to 30+years when operating at 50% power, but you lowerr the efficacy to about one half or so. So for the same light you need twice as high real power. Well, with present bulb and electricity costs, it means your light becomes twice as expensive compare to when operate the lamps at rated power and replace them once a year (assume "standardized" cycle).

So all the "buttons" and "long life lamps for home use" may increase the lamp life, but cost a lot on the lamp efficacy, so are nothing more than just a false economy scam.


And the lowering efficacy at lower power is the main reason, why it is so difficult to make the dimmable LED ballasts compatible with the incandescents, mainly to ensure the dimmer operation: It means where the incandescent consumes about 10% of the full power, so 10W instead of 100W, the LED consumes about 1% of it's full power, so about 0.15W or so (assume 15W LED as a replacement for a 100W incandescent). Well, the ballast will for sure operate well with a 10W load, but the 0.15W is really not manageable via triacs... Therefore the dimming range uses to be limited to about 5..10% of the LED power, what means about 10% of the light output. But that equals to the incandescent operating at about 30% power settings, far from the minimum...


Whoops, I forgot  that incandescent lamps are a black body radiator.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 15, 2016, 08:00:32 AM
And what about the equivalence game with household LED bulbs?
Is it that the big LED makers don't want to be caught?
Another thing stopping foolish equivalence ratings are big signs you sometimes see at LED bulb shelves, that says "You used to measure light output in watts. You now use lumens." or something like that.
And why don't the Chinese ebay lamp sellers get caught?
Or what about lighting with 5mm LEDs? How about the "Superflux" kind?
Another thing is, when I posted about why RGB LED arrays have low CRI, and after I read why, I wondered:
"Why not add more LED colors? There's a practical rainbow of them." and would that work?
It would have more lines for more color rendering, so it should be good.
But what would the efficiency be?
That's a lot of questions, but more answers means more info for LG.net
And one more thing, the old fuorescents had a LP/W of about 35, the Beryllium tubes.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: FGS on June 15, 2016, 10:43:52 AM
And what about the equivalence game with household LED bulbs?
Is it that the big LED makers don't want to be caught?
Another thing stopping foolish equivalence ratings are big signs you sometimes see at LED bulb shelves, that says "You used to measure light output in watts. You now use lumens." or something like that.
And why don't the Chinese ebay lamp sellers get caught?
Or what about lighting with 5mm LEDs? How about the "Superflux" kind?
Another thing is, when I posted about why RGB LED arrays have low CRI, and after I read why, I wondered:
"Why not add more LED colors? There's a practical rainbow of them." and would that work?
It would have more lines for more color rendering, so it should be good.
But what would the efficiency be?
That's a lot of questions, but more answers means more info for LG.net
And one more thing, the old fuorescents had a LP/W of about 35, the Beryllium tubes.

The equivalence thing is not a game. A 60w incandescent bulb gives out 800 lumens on average. So a led bulb that gives 800 lumens as well would have 60w equivalent on the label. Same thing CFLs have been doing for years.

People are familiar with 40w, 60w, 75w, 100w, and so on. So it makes sense to say this LED/CFL is equivalent to this bulb but uses less energy to produce a certain amount of lumens. Nothing to do with makers "getting caught" or some tinfoil hat BS like that.

Changing the "measure light amount by wattage" to "measure by lumens" in stores will confuse a lot of people. So if they ever do that they'll have to transition the lumens in and incandescent watts out slowly.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 15, 2016, 04:24:33 PM
And what about the equivalence game with household LED bulbs?
Is it that the big LED makers don't want to be caught?
Another thing stopping foolish equivalence ratings are big signs you sometimes see at LED bulb shelves, that says "You used to measure light output in watts. You now use lumens." or something like that.
And why don't the Chinese ebay lamp sellers get caught?
Or what about lighting with 5mm LEDs? How about the "Superflux" kind?
Another thing is, when I posted about why RGB LED arrays have low CRI, and after I read why, I wondered:
"Why not add more LED colors? There's a practical rainbow of them." and would that work?
It would have more lines for more color rendering, so it should be good.
But what would the efficiency be?
That's a lot of questions, but more answers means more info for LG.net
And one more thing, the old fuorescents had a LP/W of about 35, the Beryllium tubes.

The equivalence thing is not a game. A 60w incandescent bulb gives out 800 lumens on average. So a led bulb that gives 800 lumens as well would have 60w equivalent on the label. Same thing CFLs have been doing for years.

People are familiar with 40w, 60w, 75w, 100w, and so on. So it makes sense to say this LED/CFL is equivalent to this bulb but uses less energy to produce a certain amount of lumens. Nothing to do with makers "getting caught" or some tinfoil hat BS like that.

Changing the "measure light amount by wattage" to "measure by lumens" in stores will confuse a lot of people. So if they ever do that they'll have to transition the lumens in and incandescent watts out slowly.
I'm talking about the ebay LED sellers with their Corn-On-The-COB LED bulbs.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 15, 2016, 04:34:59 PM
Corn COB LED bulbs are known to be bad.
But the equivalence game is really for high power LED lights, the MH replacements, etc.
Then you get half the light for the same claimed output.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 15, 2016, 05:59:42 PM
The stated Lm can be assumed to be correct for most decent lamps. The Las Vegas start when there are comparative figures to other light sources, published by the manufacturer or distributors. If the lamp is a retrofit lamp, those would be probably figures comparing it to the lamp it is intended to replace

The extent of fooling varies, but this example from yesterday is classic :

LED tube (Fluorescent retrofit) i found in the janitor's office at my college. This tube is intended as a substitute for 36W T8. Its non directional and is diffused, so its light distribution really is identical to the T8, and spectral differences aside, we can compare it Lm for Lm

 - LED tube : 18W 1700Lm

 - Fluorescent : 36W 2500Lm (Halophosphor 765, the cheapest) / 2850Lm (Halophosphor 640) / 3250Lm (All 800' Triphosphors)

No doubt you'll save half the electricity with this LED tube (or a bit more if FL using Magnetic ballast), but it is nowhere near equivalent to the FL. Its output falls short of the cheapest 36W FL available, and gets somewhat past HALF the light output of the more advanced type

There is another Battle Dimension when it comes to directional LED lamps or luminaires : The LED lamp is more directional than the lamp it is compared to, and it is assumed, that you dont need the light coming elsewhere from the reference lamp. So in another case, a similar 18W 1700Lm LED can be claimed as equivalent or even exceeding the light output of the FL, but that is when assuming that none of the upwards light from the FL is usefull (assume matt black reflector behind the lamp ?) - Assumptions that are never correct unless everything was really set up to put the reference lamp into disadvantage

Example of other LED lamp, that does not play any games at all : Few "Pilot Eco" E27, E14, G6.5 lamps in my collection. They state Watts, Lumens, Distribution shape, and NO equivalence claims. Thats the way to go



Surprise, some of the biggest and greatest lighting makers play the same stuff. For example Holophane and their Highmast HMA* and HMA-LED series. They claim LED lighting that can save some outstanding amount of Energy. Comparing the light output from those LED lanterns, with HPS equivalents from the same manufacturer, leads to discovery that there is no magic - The LED uses way less power, and puts out even further way less light



Finally, there is the output spectrum of the LED. For the same light levels on an area in Lux (so for lamps with identical distribution, same Lumens), LED light provides inferior visibility to discharge white light sources, and where it comes to outdoor, then even compared to things like HPS

This is result of where in the spectrum quite a bit of the power from the LED is concentrated : In 450nm Blue. It is not close to the sensitivity of our Rod cells so its contribution to visible light levels is not very high, but it does balance the otherwise Orange light from the Phosphor to make White. Discharge sources put out quite a bit in the Green, which our eyes see much better

And its before we count in eye strain effects resulting from the very same Blue



Measuring light in Lumens, Distribution angles, and surface areas is the proper way to rate and design any light installations

Watt equivalence sorta works if it is done fairly, but..

 - With Incandescent it can indeed work, as Incandescents of the same wattage are really very uniform

 - With Fluorescent and HID, the reference lamp varies, so when you name a wattage, you dont really name an exact Lm figure. For example, 36W Fluorescent can be between 2500 to 3200 Lm. 70W MH can be between 6600 to 8500Lm. To what 36W T8 or 70W MH you will compare ? If you try, atleast try to be somewhere within the range, not like the above example with the 18W tube..



There are very good reasons to not use ABSOLUTELY ANY grid powered device "new from the Chinese sellers" on Ebay. Not restricted to lamps. They blow up, burn connected other devices, burn down houses, do hair design to users, and so on

And no, they dont get caught with that either



5mm LEDs are not really made for high power density. That is, there is only so much heat you can conduct out of a 5mm package without the chip temperature going very high

From there, its up to your design :

 - If you make a big sized lamp or lantern with lots of LEDs relative to its wattage, then the power on each LED is small, the relative area of the heatsinking area that "belongs to this LED" is sufficient, and you can use whatever LEDs you want and make a decent thermal design

 - If you try to get max power on min area, you must use LEDs with the lowest possible thermal resistance from the chip to the heatsink connection. This rules out by far both 5mm and Superflux



RGB LEDs would definitely change the way the spectrum is composed, especially in the R/G part : Either Red and Green peaks similar to the Blue, or the wide hill from the Phosphor. It is indeed very likely that you can get better LEDs with the RGB approach. However :

 - The Red and Green LED components are not as efficient as the Blue, so your resulting LED probably will be less efficient than todays Blue+Phosphor LEDs. This would mean, losing the key claim that is now pushing LEDs everywhere : That they are so efficient. So you get a possibly better LED, but one that you can't push on the market as hard....

 - The Blue is still there, any plans ?



The old Fluorescents dont exist anymore (except in our collections) for many decades. Not only that, but many of the peeps responsible for maintenance of the lighting in places are too young to know them at all. Its not like, "5 years ago we had those Fluorescents". So no point in using them as a reference lamp



Corn LEDs are cheap to make so Ebay is full of them, but technologically nothing prevents making a decent corn for a change
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 15, 2016, 07:45:04 PM
Corn LEDs are cheap to make so Ebay is full of them, but technologically nothing prevents making a decent corn for a change
I hope that time comes.
I actually like the look of them, But not when they replace HID.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 27, 2016, 05:07:49 PM
Have you installed any filament LED lights? It seems to be a promisingly efficient LED type.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on June 27, 2016, 05:12:14 PM
I have, I have a total of 26 LED filament lamps in my house, 10 under my kitchen units, 9 in the living room, 5 on the kitchen ceiling, on in my hallway, and one at the top of the stairs!
the other 4 lights in the house are fluorescent.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 27, 2016, 05:13:56 PM
I have, I have a total of 26 LED filament lamps in my house, 10 under my kitchen units, 9 in the living room, 5 on the kitchen ceiling, on in my hallway, and one at the top of the stairs!
the other 4 lights in the house are fluorescent.
That must have taken a lot of money to do!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on June 27, 2016, 05:17:16 PM
Kind of, I did it over a few months, but their price has come down a bit in the UK to what they use to be, you can get the 7watts here now for £8, ($10.59 in US money).
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 27, 2016, 05:20:01 PM
Wow, that's cheap.
I also wonder about the silliness of the daylight filament lamps because it looks like a old styled incandescent trying to be a daylight color.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on June 27, 2016, 05:24:52 PM
I know what you mean, but I wouldn`t mind a few of them, we can only get the 2700K ones here at the minute!
All mine in the house are Sylvanias quality ones ;)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 27, 2016, 05:30:24 PM
For home use there is no practical difference between any lamps that are allready at 50 Lm/W or higher :

For example CFLs are about 60..Lm/W. This means that for 1200Lm (quite good lighting level for a room) the CFL required would be 20W

Lets say you switch to 12W Filament LED with same output, that means you save 8W

8W * 6 hours/day * 365.25 days/year * $0.15/KWh = about $2.60 saved a year. This is tiny expense, that for the home user (who uses most of the electricity for various home appliances aand not lighting) is not detectable compared to the rest of the electrical bill. So even if this pays for itself, the home user won't bother to save what he can't see...



As for me, I stay with good Fluorescents (and CFLs) that provide good qality, good looking, and healthy light, and $2.60 (or more) is not whats going to change this
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 27, 2016, 05:33:24 PM
For home use there is no practical difference between any lamps that are allready at 50 Lm/W or higher :

For example CFLs are about 60..Lm/W. This means that for 1200Lm (quite good lighting level for a room) the CFL required would be 20W

Lets say you switch to 12W Filament LED with same output, that means you save 8W

8W * 6 hours/day * 365.25 days/year * $0.15/KWh = about $2.60 saved a year. This is tiny expense, that for the home user (who uses most of the electricity for various home appliances aand not lighting) is not detectable compared to the rest of the electrical bill. So even if this pays for itself, the home user won't bother to save what he can't see...



As for me, I stay with good Fluorescents (and CFLs) that provide good qality, good looking, and healthy light, and $2.60 (or more) is not whats going to change this
Well, the savings are substantial if you get, say, 100 of these.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on June 27, 2016, 05:34:27 PM
Yeah, it depends on what light levels you want also, I use to go way over the top, with silly bright CFLs, at 35watts!
The drop down to 7watt filament LED was a big difference at first, but you get use to seeing it when the whole house is lit with the same lamp type.
I knocked off almost 900watts total lighting load from all the different `mix and match` lamps I use to run.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 27, 2016, 05:46:47 PM
Yeah, it depends on what light levels you want also, I use to go way over the top, with silly bright CFLs, at 35watts!
The drop down to 7watt filament LED was a big difference at first, but you get use to seeing it when the whole house is lit with the same lamp type.
I knocked off almost 900watts total lighting load from all the different `mix and match` lamps I use to run.
We like it bright, we have a chandelier with 6 60 watt incandescents in a small room!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 27, 2016, 05:49:16 PM
The question this rises is, if you are ok with the lower light levels, why didnt you use lower power lights allready then, before the LEDs ?

In my home, it is more or less :
 - CFLs in parent's "traditional" luminaires (that used to be Incandescent, 2 were linear Halogen that i converted to E27 to put in CFLs)
 - PL-S for my low power lighting needs (my room overhead)
 - 36W T8 for higher power lighting needs (kitchen over cabinets, ..)
 - Still Incandescents where switched on rarely or for short time (corridors, toilet, closets, ..)

All are chosen for the application, both by light output and color temperature

It was big saving when switching from Incandescents to CFLs in the mid 00's, but i am absolutely clueless how any significant additional savings can be reached in home lighting by switchng from CFLs to anything else. The CFLs simply draw low enough power as they are, so the headroom for any would-be additional savings is not high



One of my parents luminaires is a chandelier that used to be 5 x 60 GLS, now uses 13W 6500K CFLs. It is switched on by 2 circuits (3 lamps + 2 lamps), parents usually switch on all 5 lamps, i switch on part when only i use the lighting
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 27, 2016, 05:59:58 PM
The question this rises is, if you are ok with the lower light levels, why didnt you use lower power lights allready then, before the LEDs ?

In my home, it is more or less :
 - CFLs in parent's "traditional" luminaires (that used to be Incandescent, 2 were linear Halogen that i converted to E27 to put in CFLs)
 - PL-S for my low power lighting needs (my room overhead)
 - 36W T8 for higher power lighting needs (kitchen over cabinets, ..)
 - Still Incandescents where switched on rarely or for short time (corridors, toilet, closets, ..)

All are chosen for the application, both by light output and color temperature

It was big saving when switching from Incandescents to CFLs in the mid 00's, but i am absolutely clueless how any significant additional savings can be reached in home lighting by switchng from CFLs to anything else. The CFLs simply draw low enough power as they are, so the headroom for any would-be additional savings is not high



One of my parents luminaires is a chandelier that used to be 5 x 60 GLS, now uses 13W 6500K CFLs. It is switched on by 2 circuits (3 lamps + 2 lamps), parents usually switch on all 5 lamps, i switch on part when only i use the lighting
Problems with those lighting choices here:
Pl - "Too hard to use and it looks ugly!"
CFL - "EEK! Mercury! I don't like that tube shape."
Linear fluorescent - "Too ugly, that's industrial lighting, not for homes!"
Incandescent - "Too inefficient."
These are general opinions that seem to be the norm here, but I would never think of these opinions for these lighting technologies.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on June 28, 2016, 01:48:08 AM
Its more of an experimentation with me, when I moved in, (1995), I fitted 2 foot twin fluorescent all over the house!, but as I got older, I started to dislike that `cold`, low pressure mercury discharge ambience, you tend to get with tubes.
Over the years I swapped over to CFL, of all different sizes, but again, as with any mercury discharge, you still get that cold UV output, even with 2700K colours.

Then I started to pop the odd LED in, but they were the early ones with the SMT, downward only facing diodes, (at this point the filament type were only just starting to come out, and were silly dear, or poorly made Chinese ones), it was only when Sylvania had perfected it, and had them out for sale to the home owner, I decided to change ALL of them.

I know LED are not really favoured by lighting enthusiasts as of yet, but the filament design, I really do think is the future of lighting, when the cooling gas is perfected, so they can make bigger and bigger sizes, I reckon we will start to see filament tech than can perform at HID level?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on June 28, 2016, 06:02:19 AM
... I started to dislike that `cold`, low pressure mercury discharge ambience, you tend to get with tubes.
Over the years I swapped over to CFL, of all different sizes, but again, as with any mercury discharge, you still get that cold UV output, even with 2700K colours.

Do you see that 'cold UV output" with metal halide (I'm thinking CMH here) as well ? I find them to be quite different from fluorescent but cannot explain why.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 28, 2016, 09:30:21 AM
... I started to dislike that `cold`, low pressure mercury discharge ambience, you tend to get with tubes.
Over the years I swapped over to CFL, of all different sizes, but again, as with any mercury discharge, you still get that cold UV output, even with 2700K colours.

Do you see that 'cold UV output" with metal halide (I'm thinking CMH here) as well ? I find them to be quite different from fluorescent but cannot explain why.
Maybe because of the bright light? Or that the spectrum is more filled in? Or that the CRI is higher?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 28, 2016, 12:50:44 PM
Update: Remember that failed LED bulb? It magically fixed itself!  :D
So no LED bulbs have failed yet.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Solanaceae on June 28, 2016, 01:46:37 PM
Interesting, sounds like a loose solder joint.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 28, 2016, 01:56:28 PM
Interesting, sounds like a loose solder joint.
I thought it was a driver issue because it was constantly flashing at a constant rate.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 28, 2016, 04:05:17 PM
Interesting, sounds like a loose solder joint.
I thought it was a driver issue because it was constantly flashing at a constant rate.

Well, could be a loose solder joint inside of the ballast, there are many of them...
The cycling then came from heat: Colder -> operates; Warms up -> looses connection...
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on June 28, 2016, 04:20:10 PM
... I started to dislike that `cold`, low pressure mercury discharge ambience, you tend to get with tubes.
Over the years I swapped over to CFL, of all different sizes, but again, as with any mercury discharge, you still get that cold UV output, even with 2700K colours.

Do you see that 'cold UV output" with metal halide (I'm thinking CMH here) as well ? I find them to be quite different from fluorescent but cannot explain why.
I know what you mean, I think its the `sharpness` of light from a CMH, but I only see it in fluorescent?, must be something to do with low pressure mercury discharges?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Medved on June 28, 2016, 04:32:30 PM
I doubt the "sharpness" has anything to do with UV at all.
But the CRI80 CFL's emit all light just within few peaks in the spectrum and nothing elsewhere. That indeed looks not natural (it is, why at the end the CRI isn't closer to 100).
On the other hand the CMH tend to emit zillions of lines over he whole spectrum, the 3000K (WW) types just tend to be too rich in the yellow (in fact a HPS radiation) and that lowers their CRI to the 80's, but still the spectrum i rather full with them. The NDL (4200K) have the yellow weaker (that is, what shifts the CCT), more appropriate to the white, so that is, why these really have CRI 90+.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 28, 2016, 04:56:43 PM
I noticed that Osram 3000K Dulux D (PL-C) lamps - specifically them, not 2700K - have very pleasing "not cold" light. I experimented with Dulux D 18W and 26W in 2700/3000/4000 K and big diffusers (actually "lollipop" posttop lanterns, with the white sphere made of Polyethylene, that transfers colors correctly and does not filter the light) and compared them

The Osram 3000K 36W T8 Lumilux is close second but it looks like they use some other Phosphor there, that lets some of the "cold" out, tho little

LED lamps can indeed appear warmer, i guess that is because of the lack of Violet and relatively low Green in the spectrum, so probably the Blue alone is not very visible in the overall color. However, it is noticable that their spectrum is lacking where the 3000K Triphosphors are not
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on June 28, 2016, 07:49:26 PM
Maybe it is still there but 'drowned' in the other spectrum lines.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Silverliner on June 29, 2016, 04:10:38 AM
Triphosphor fluorescents make everything cartoony due to the spikes. Those spikes also have high relative energy.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 29, 2016, 08:26:05 AM
Triphosphor fluorescents make everything cartoony due to the spikes. Those spikes also have high relative energy.
And yet it gives good CRI.
Halophosphors just have that "feeling" of the light.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on June 29, 2016, 05:21:21 PM
The spikes from Triphosphors (and spikes from the Hg discharge) are spaced out well in the visible spectrum, so cover most all of it well, without overloading any specific cone cell type. Their light is the best White (of any color temp) you can get before you turn to MH
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 29, 2016, 06:54:04 PM
The spikes from Triphosphors (and spikes from the Hg discharge) are spaced out well in the visible spectrum, so cover most all of it well, without overloading any specific cone cell type. Their light is the best White (of any color temp) you can get before you turn to MH
MH can get more color temps with potentially better (or worse) CRI.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Silverliner on June 29, 2016, 08:17:43 PM
No, broad spectrum deluxe halophoshor lamps have the best color/spectrum. They are inefficient though.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on June 29, 2016, 08:19:08 PM
No, broad spectrum deluxe halophoshor lamps have the best color/spectrum. They are inefficient though.
I love the look of the plant grow (GE Plant & Aquarium) lights, as I don't actually have any "real" Deluxe Halophosphor tubes, but I think it makes everything look nice and cozy.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: streetlight98 on January 21, 2017, 10:40:03 PM
Hmm. Late reply, but for my house we've done a partial conversion.

I bought my first LEDs in 2012 (and they still work). They're 7.5W Utilitech (Panasonic) LEDs. I had installed them in my room but they're now in my brother's room. Those were our only LEDs until about May 2016 when I found some more LEDs at the ReStore. They were dirt cheap so I bought a few.

Currently this is my lighting situation:

Kitchen Chandelier: 4X 60W= LEDs
Kitchen Sink Light: 1X 60W=LED; 1X 60W= CFL
Dining Room Light: 4X 60W=LEDs
Living room: 3-Way CFL (50/100/150W=)
Hallway Light: 2X 60W Incandescent (actually 2X 52W Sylvania SuperSaver lamps; both original to the house from 2003)
Brother's Bedroom: 3X 60W= LED
My Bedroom: 3X 60W= LED
Parents' Bedroom: 2X 53W (75W=) halogens
Master Bathroom: 1X 75W= LED; 4X candelabra base 40W incandescent globe lights for vanity
Bathroom: 1X 75W= LED; 3X 60W G30 incandescent lamps for vanity (all are original to house from 2003)
Staircase Chandelier: 5X 40W Incandescent (all original to house from 2003)

And now the basement and garage:
1X 53W halogen, 2X 2-lamp F40T12/RS vaportight fixtures, 1X 3-lamp F17T8 wrap light, 1X 3-lamp F32T8 troffer, 1X 2-lamp F32T8 troffer, 1X 1-lamp  F30T12/RS light, 1X 2-lamp F48HO industrial, 1X 100W incandescent keyless socket fixture, 1X 2-lamp F40 preheat shoplight, 1X 2-lamp F40T12/RS turret with 34W lamps.

For Outside:
2X 53W halogens by front stoop
2X 72W halogens by garage door
1X 100W HPS flood light for backyard
1X 75W halogen flood light for backyard (attached to HPS flood)
1X 70W PSMH deck light

I've pretty much eliminated all the CFLs. I'm still installing halogens for outdoor lights since any LED I've installed outdoors won't last for whatever reason. I have switched to all LED for 40-and-60W= lamps (as they die; working lamps remain) and I'm thinking about switching over the remaining 75W= lamps over to LED as they burn out.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: ace100w120v on January 21, 2017, 11:08:50 PM
My house now, unless my dad, who's living there while I'm in college, had to change a burned out bulb:

Mostly 5000K LED now, TCP and Feit from 2016, and a couple 2700K GEs from 2016 and two 2700K Philips ones.

A few CFLs are left, but in rarely used locations as it is.  I'd like to eradicate them as well.  Mostly 2700K but one 23w 6500K.

I also have some 5000K filament LEDs, two in the fridge light and two in a motion sensor outside. 

And still lots of magnetic F40/RS!  I mean LOTS.  Four F32T8 wraparounds, but good quality commercial grade Lithonia ones.  Two are on replacement ballasts though. 
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on January 22, 2017, 09:29:15 AM
For me, no bulbs have burned out, except for one $1 LED filament bulb.
When the outdoor CFL floodlights burn out, I might try to install some LED.
Currently, the only indoor CFL is in an attic light.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Ash on January 22, 2017, 01:23:31 PM
Triphosphors over here. Ain't going to downgrade

My room : 6500K / 4000K / 2700K Triphosphors
Parents rooms : 2700K Triphosphors
Living room : 6500K Triphosphors
Dining room/Kitchen : 2700K + 3000K Triphosphors + 6500K Halophosphors
Corridors : Incandescent
Bathrooms : Incandescent
Outdoor : HPS
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: xmaslightguy on February 17, 2017, 08:57:12 PM
House is mostly linear fluorescent - depending on the room T5, T8, or T12 (with T12 becomming less through upgrades in living spaces.. but the garage will remain T12, those fixtures will not be upgraded)
Dining room & bathrooms are incandescent, and will remain as such.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on February 17, 2017, 09:08:33 PM
Now, our house is mostly LED, but with a few notable non-LED lights.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: streetlight98 on February 17, 2017, 09:39:22 PM
Only update from my list above is that the light over the kitchen sink was upgraded from one intermittently working Cree 60W= LED and one 14W A19 MAXLITE CFL to two 75W= LED lamps. Much brighter now and no warm up time from the CFL or flicker from the dying LED.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Lodge on February 26, 2017, 05:08:54 PM
I've gone pretty much all LED inside, from Philps, Feit, Osram, lights of america, Globe and few others I even regularly burn a couple of neon 1 watt flicker flame lights as night lighting, but just so I'm never left in the dark I also have a few self ballasted Metal halides, and one Carbon filiment (modern reproduction)

Outside I have R&C (Rab) led lights on a motion sensor and low pressure sodium's, 18 watts philips goldeye's which are my all night burners ( they just never seem to die ) And were all else fails I also have 6 coleman lanterns all 30 years or older, and a couple of 3 / 4 D cell maglite flashlights in-case someone tries to do something in the dark I don't like, and for the Zombie attack I also have a large box of cyalume glow sticks and CIL flares.

I think the only incandescent's I use are in the oven and microwave..

But I don't really worry much about the energy efficiency part as I know how to use my dimmer switch's and how to turn them into a zero watt lights at the flip of a switch, and all my outdoor lighting is either motion or astrological timer controlled but I like to change all my lighting regularly and see what works or me and what doesn't nothing ever stays up for a real long time except the LPS lights outside because they are pain to reach.. 
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Lampenfreak on March 12, 2017, 07:06:25 AM
I already changed over to LED in my flat. There is only fluorescent left in the kitchen and HID lighting (24/7) in the living room. Else is only LED tubes and bulbs. All works perfect!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: MissRiaElaine on March 20, 2018, 05:34:21 PM
Believe it or not, our flat is mostly LED, mainly for the reduction in electricity consumption, but also because we were given a lot of them for free by a friend who ran a lighting shop..! We do have a 28W 2D fitting in the bathroom and a couple of incandescents knocking about, but by and large we're ok with LED's. I'm not totally anti-LED, as some people seem to think, I just don't like them for street lighting.

The thing that annoys me the most is the lack of choice we are being given these days. The shops have already stopped selling normal incandescent lamps, except for a few specialist types such as oven lamps, CFL's are going the same way, as are halogens in some places. Sooner or later, all we will be left with is LED. This is just plain WRONG. People should have the choice on what to use.

Ok, rant over..! :P  8)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Mandolin Girl on March 20, 2018, 05:44:17 PM

The thing that annoys me the most is the lack of choice we are being given these days. The shops have already stopped selling normal incandescent lamps, except for a few specialist types such as oven lamps, CFL's are going the same way, as are halogens in some places. Sooner or later, all we will be left with is LED. This is just plain WRONG. People should have the choice on what to use.

Ok, rant over..! :P  8)
I totally agree sweetheart!!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Cole D. on March 24, 2018, 11:44:07 PM
We have no LED bulbs at all - yet other than in the refrigerator which came with LED lights. And outside the solar lights all have LED of course. We don't even have any CFLs, tried them a number of years ago and they just wouldn't last long. Last ones we bought were around 2007-08.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Mandolin Girl on March 28, 2018, 07:32:00 AM
The lighting fixture in the bathroom takes a 28W 2D fluorescent lamp, and when we can no longer get the lamps we will have to either get a new fixture installed or by-pass the ballast, as we did try an LED equivalent and popped it.  :D
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: F96T12 DD VHO on March 29, 2018, 11:42:44 AM
Well since I really have two choices on where to stay I'm going to explain both

Girlfriends Parents House:
Living Room: One Lamp that Has an orange shade and is a 3-way, the bulb is a 3-way GE 2700K CFL
Kitchen: LED Downlights 2700K
Front Door: 8 lamp chandelier that holds 6500K CFLs that are each 13W
Mackenzie's Room: A couple of neon lights and a 32 watt Circleline Bulb 5000K
Her Parents Room: Just 4 lamps placed on each corner of the room all are 2700K and 26W
Guest Room (My room): Dimmable Halogen PAR38 that is in a ceramic light socket that is on the ceiling
Hallway(upstairs and downstairs): Lithonia Lighting 4' Fluorescent wraparound 6500K lamps (F32T8)
Laundry Room: I upgraded their laundry room to a MH in a ceramic light socket on the ceiling (The ballast is next to the light socket screwed in)
Garage: Two single lamp 8' fixtures that have F96T12 DX HO on mag ballast(upgraded from 4')

Our Apartment:
Living Room: Incandescent floods on lamps that can be pointed anywhere
Ceiling Boob Placed in the middle of nowhere: 2 26w CFLs 2700K
Kitchen: A two lamp 8' T12 fixture (Mackenzie took down the LED downlights that were just placed anywhere she also put of the 8' fixture and installed the tubes) F96T12 DX HO on mag ballast
My Room: Many F20s and F40s all of which are DX
Her Room: Some Neon Lights and one of my most prized possessions, my F96T12 DX VHO from 1987 on mag ballast (leaning against wall)
Very Small Hallway: One 400W HPS stuffed in a normal lamp with no shade and is externally ballasted, and of course a E26 to E39 adapter (lamp is 6')
Bathroom: https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=4719&pos=17&pid=144087
Her Two sisters room (yes, they both sleep in the same room different bed): Dimmable 300W clear incandescent lamp in ceiling fixture
Conclusion:
No, in either place I've stayed in has no LED in anywhere, We all like quality light that's going to last 
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: wattMaster on March 29, 2018, 12:50:47 PM
Currently, there's nothing other than LED for indoors (with the exceptions of a halogen track light, a fan with an incandescent bulb, and an incandescent chandelier) but the only LED for outside is the porch lights.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: HomeBrewLamps on August 06, 2018, 12:23:21 PM
If I can get away with it.. Ima light my house entirely with low wattage HID (MV and HPS) along with incandescent and CFLs mixed in as secondaries... Same as I do my room now..
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: MissRiaElaine on August 06, 2018, 12:25:47 PM
If I can get away with it.. Ima light my house entirely with low wattage HID (MV and HPS) along with incandescent and CFLs mixed in as secondaries... Same as I do my room now..
I like the idea  ;D

What about warm-up problems, though..? If it's a room where the lights are on for long periods then fine, but it wouldn't work in rooms where the lights are switched on and off a lot  ???
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on August 06, 2018, 12:47:43 PM
If I can get away with it.. Ima light my house entirely with low wattage HID (MV and HPS) along with incandescent and CFLs mixed in as secondaries... Same as I do my room now..
Be prepared for a fair bit of work then ;), and don't go overboard like I did! Twin 70 watt halides in your kitchen will turn out to be a 12,000 lumen eye fryer!  ;D, similarly, 125 watt MV lamps in a table lamp in the living room is a fire hazard!, and if you fancy 20 watt CMH lamps in downlight cans, make sure you have both the correct fitting, and gear or you'll encounter many frustrating and time consuming modifications you will have to make!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sol on August 06, 2018, 01:41:25 PM
I have several MH table lamps and they run faily cool unless you touch the lamp. Warmup is not a problem as they run for long times. They aren’t the only light sources so I have plenty of restrike lighting.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: tolivac on August 07, 2018, 01:16:58 AM
I use various HID lights in my place.For LED-I went BACK to CFL(Sylvania) after the Sylvania LED bubls in my bathroom light-it uses 4 "100w" bulbs-the LEDs one failed-the otrher were flickering and flashing-about 1 yr old.The replacement CFL are just fine!work BETTER!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on August 07, 2018, 03:08:09 AM
I have several MH table lamps and they run faily cool unless you touch the lamp. Warmup is not a problem as they run for long times. They aren’t the only light sources so I have plenty of restrike lighting.
I did something really stupid though, looking back on it now!, I ran a de-luxe, 125watt MV lamp in a standard British table lamp, on a small shelf in the corner of my living room, (with the ballast conveniently mounted under the shelf).

It lit the room perfectly, with just enough light and little glare, with its shade on.
I wrongly thought the heat from the lamp would just convect through the open bottom and top of the shade, harmlessly passing the, (quite high heat from a 125 MV), over the elliptical shape of the bulb. I didn`t figure however, the glass temp, and the distance from the side of the shade, (that I thought was ample)!, turns out it cooked it, to the point that smoke started to come off it one night, (luckily, VERY LUCKILY, just as I came back in the room from upstairs to see it)!!!

The best HID lamp conversions have to be the modded halogen uplights though, as these ARE designed to take a lot of heat, and a TD ended halide fits right into them, without modification to the fitting.
And providing you wiring is upgraded for a HID circuit, it will give countless hours, danger free service!  
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: MissRiaElaine on August 07, 2018, 08:50:16 AM
I did something really stupid though, looking back on it now!, I ran a de-luxe, 125watt MV lamp in a standard British table lamp, on a small shelf in the corner of my living room, (with the ballast conveniently mounted under the shelf).

It lit the room perfectly, with just enough light and little glare, with its shade on.
I wrongly thought the heat from the lamp would just convect through the open bottom and top of the shade, harmlessly passing the, (quite high heat from a 125 MV), over the elliptical shape of the bulb. I didn`t figure however, the glass temp, and the distance from the side of the shade, (that I thought was ample)!, turns out it cooked it, to the point that smoke started to come off it one night, (luckily, VERY LUCKILY, just as I came back in the room from upstairs to see it)!!!
Owww..!Ye gods, you came close there..!  :o

Not lighting related, but years ago when I was still living with my parents, I had a 2-bar electric heater in my bedroom. One evening, I left the room to go and make a coffee and came back to find my bed well alight and the room filled with smoke  :o

Apparently, I had left the heater just ever-so-slightly too close to the bed, and the bedclothes had caught alight..! If I'd been in bed asleep at the time, I wouldn't have woken up  :-\
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on August 07, 2018, 03:40:09 PM
I went on holiday for a week in Llandudno, North Wales, leaving the gas fire on in the living room, the front door unlocked, and when we got there, I found I`d left the keys to the caravan, (that was locked onto the back of the car with us), on the kitchen table at home! ::)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: MissRiaElaine on August 07, 2018, 04:27:22 PM
I went on holiday for a week in Llandudno, North Wales, leaving the gas fire on in the living room, the front door unlocked, and when we got there, I found I`d left the keys to the caravan, (that was locked onto the back of the car with us), on the kitchen table at home! ::)
Ha..! I was at the airport checking in for a flight home from San Francisco a few years ago, and I couldn't find my passport..! I rang the friends I had been staying with and yes, as I thought, it was still on the kitchen table..! They had a VERY quick drive out to drop it off, I'm glad they didn't get a speeding ticket  :D
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: boiler1011 on August 23, 2018, 03:54:25 PM
We moved into our new build house over the Christmas holidays of 2014. Our first full day in the house may have even been 1JAN15. At any rate, the builder put in the cheapest CFL's they could source, and I particularly hated the CFL flood lights they dropped into the recessed cans. (The ones that take 2 hours to fully light up.) So over the next 6 weeks I began the process of retrofitting all the lights in the house to LED. The higher end ones were still a little on the expensive side, so I started with the fixtures we used the most, and then worked my way down to the least used fixtures like the second guest room closet. We run about 99% with minimal problems. The only alternative sources we run are due to the nature of their function, i.e., the microwave, convection oven, wax warmers, and the 55W SOX fixture that serves as a night light in the garage. So as we reach the 5 year mark, I can only recall ever having to replace one LED bulb, and it was one of the 2$ ones from Walmart sold under the Great Value brand. We have a good mix of brands, and I really like the Philips SeceneSwitch line, which several of our fans and hanging lights have. I also really love our Utilitech NightGlow retrofits which took the place of the CFLs in the cans. These have a night light function halo ring which puts out the perfect amount of light for watching movies, or navigating around the living room and kitchen late at night. I have been most impressed with our LED landscape lighting. I have had 0 issues. It is somewhat of a mix, with most of it being Intermatic brand, but we also have a fair bit of Hampton Bay.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: takemorepills on August 24, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
Our house is mostly "converted". In our case, that means all CFLs are history. I never liked CFLs.
We did not do LED for savings, as I don't buy that. And, according to the wife (she's the CFO) she hasn't noticed the electric bill changing at all (our house was 90% incan when we bought it in '12).
We got these LED recessed can retros that solved a problem the cans in our vaulted ceiling had: they are unsealed and there's no attic access. They were drafty around the BR40 bulbs and sometimes a wasp or bee would fall down in the winter. The LED retros are sealed and gasketed so they solve that issue, and was our primary reason to get them.
In our bathroom when we remodeled, we used those flat LEDs that look like a recessed can but are only 1" deep because there was HVAC ducting right behind the drywall where we wanted to install can lighting.
The other LED bulbs I have are either bright as hell (CREE PAR38 1600L for ex) or interesting as hell (clear "Switch" A shaped LED bulbs).

The rest of our lighting is incan, and theres a SBMV over the fooseball table.

I don't mind LEDs, but I also don't buy the hype over them, they have their uses but I highly doubt they are "green" due to the manufacturing process and the fact many LED lights are now integrated fixtures. The entire fixture needs to be disposed of when the LED fails, and we all know it is somewhat likely they'll fail prematurely.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: MissRiaElaine on August 24, 2018, 08:59:40 AM
I don't mind LEDs, but I also don't buy the hype over them, they have their uses but I highly doubt they are "green" due to the manufacturing process and the fact many LED lights are now integrated fixtures. The entire fixture needs to be disposed of when the LED fails, and we all know it is somewhat likely they'll fail prematurely.
Can't help but agree. We fitted lots of LED's 2 or 3 years ago after getting them (mostly) free from a friend who ran a lighting shop. Most of them have failed now and we're using halogens, which I've always preferred over CFL's, although I do have a box of those in reserve that my mum got sent for free from British Gas about 10 years ago.

I agree about the integrated fixtures as well, we have a floor standing reading lamp at one end of the sofa that's like that. It's ok, but (a) it's not going  to last forever and (b) it's got a touch-sensitive on/off switch, which sometimes totally ignores the fact that one or the other of us has been prodding it for 5 minutes and are on the point of doing a Photon and saying "Where's me 'ammer..?"  :-\  :D
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: AngryHorse on September 07, 2018, 01:41:27 AM
This is quite Interesting, and as an update, I have now got a total of 38 led lamps, and two led road lanterns in full time use at home, and haven't had a SINGLE one fail yet. What make were the ones you have had fail out of interest?
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: MissRiaElaine on September 07, 2018, 08:01:59 AM
This is quite Interesting, and as an update, I have now got a total of 38 led lamps, and two led road lanterns in full time use at home, and haven't had a SINGLE one fail yet. What make were the ones you have had fail out of interest?
Not sure to be honest, they were mostly unboxed ones that might very well have been used before we got them. A friend used to run a shop, as I said, and he gave us a load of them. I do have one 6W one still left in the bedroom that I bought for a quid from Maplins about 6 or 7 years ago, and that is still going strong, although I've noticed it start to flicker a little occasionally, so it is probably on the way out.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Bamaslamma1003 on September 12, 2018, 12:41:19 PM
I have one led lamp in the entire house. The rest are either 72w screw-in halogen or Dollar Store 100w 130v lamps. In the kitchen is one F30T12RS 2-lamp fixture under the cabinets, an F20T12 preheat fixture (with F17T8 lamp) over the sink, and an electronic F15T8 under another cabinet. The screw-in halogen lamps are nice but blow out quickly. So far no failures with the dollar store bulbs.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: HPS_250 on January 06, 2020, 07:21:13 PM
My house is mostly lit by Feit LED bulbs too, except for my magnetic ballasted fluorescent fixtures in the garage. I had to keep those!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Mandolin Girl on January 07, 2020, 09:55:00 AM
We're in the process of converting our home back to traditional light sources.  8)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Miles on January 07, 2020, 01:41:01 PM
I've made a list of every single socket in use in the house. Ceiling lights, table lamps, floor lamps, porch lights, security lights, etc. With a range of incandescents from 25, 40, 60 and 100W.

If all of them were ON 24/7, for the Northern California rates, I'd have to pay close to $2800 a year.

I've replaced them all with high CRI 3000K Cree LEDs matching the lumen rating of the old incandescent for their fixture and purpose. If all of these were ON 24/7, I'd now pay close to $350.
That's a difference of about $2450.

I know this is the extreme end of the spectrum and no one leaves everything on all day, but it gives perspective. Two grand plus is a lot of money.
Now to make it a bit more realistic, the two radial waves outside both burn a 150W incandescent from dusk to dawn (~10 hours/day) everyday. In one year that's close to $200 I'll pay to PG&E for the privilege of watching a filament burn. If I switch over to LEDs, say, 20W per bulb to match the desired lumen output of 150W, that's $30. Thirty dollars. With the $170 difference in my pocket, I can treat myself to a nice meal, put gas in the car and go cruise or whatever I fancy.

However, I know this is a lighting hobby community, and like every other hobby, people blow money in it to make themselves happy. I'm aware that I'm spending an extra $170 a year for the privilege of having incandescents in period fixtures. That's my hobby, my money and how I chose to spend it. But for everyone else who are not into lighting but curious about choices and expenses, this site is a nice resource with insanely intelligent and knowledgeable users, when they are being reasonable and explain both sides without bias or false leads.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sox35 on January 07, 2020, 02:29:51 PM
I've made a list of every single socket in use in the house. Ceiling lights, table lamps, floor lamps, porch lights, security lights, etc. With a range of incandescents from 25, 40, 60 and 100W.

If all of them were ON 24/7, for the Northern California rates, I'd have to pay close to $2800 a year.

I've replaced them all with high CRI 3000K Cree LEDs matching the lumen rating of the old incandescent for their fixture and purpose. If all of these were ON 24/7, I'd now pay close to $350.
That's a difference of about $2450.

I know this is the extreme end of the spectrum and no one leaves everything on all day, but it gives perspective. Two grand plus is a lot of money.
Now to make it a bit more realistic, the two radial waves outside both burn a 150W incandescent from dusk to dawn (~10 hours/day) everyday. In one year that's close to $200 I'll pay to PG&E for the privilege of watching a filament burn. If I switch over to LEDs, say, 20W per bulb to match the desired lumen output of 150W, that's $30. Thirty dollars. With the $170 difference in my pocket, I can treat myself to a nice meal, put gas in the car and go cruise or whatever I fancy.

However, I know this is a lighting hobby community, and like every other hobby, people blow money in it to make themselves happy. I'm aware that I'm spending an extra $170 a year for the privilege of having incandescents in period fixtures. That's my hobby, my money and how I chose to spend it. But for everyone else who are not into lighting but curious about choices and expenses, this site is a nice resource with insanely intelligent and knowledgeable users, when they are being reasonable and explain both sides without bias or false leads.

That's a fair and reasoned post Miles, thank you  :)

We are going the other way, we did try LED's, as a friend used to run a lighting shop and gave us a lot of them either free or very cheap, but we've decided to buck the trend and go LED-free. All our lights are now back to incandescent, apart from a 28W 2D fitting in the bathroom (and another one about to go up in the kitchen). The only LED left is a bulkhead in the cupboard where our gas and electricity meters are, that will be replaced in due course.

Oh, and there's an LED floor lamp next to the sofa which will be replaced when we get a post to put our Gamma 6 SOX lantern on  ;D

We're not going away on holiday this year, we're spending our money on lamps and the electricity to run them  :)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: HPS_250 on January 07, 2020, 08:14:54 PM
I also replaced all of the incandescent lamps in my house with high CRI LEDs, and they really have great brightness and color rendering. The electricity bill also went down by 100KWH or about $10.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Miles on January 08, 2020, 09:40:09 PM
That's a fair and reasoned post Miles, thank you  :)

We are going the other way, we did try LED's, as a friend used to run a lighting shop and gave us a lot of them either free or very cheap, but we've decided to buck the trend and go LED-free. All our lights are now back to incandescent, apart from a 28W 2D fitting in the bathroom (and another one about to go up in the kitchen). The only LED left is a bulkhead in the cupboard where our gas and electricity meters are, that will be replaced in due course.

Oh, and there's an LED floor lamp next to the sofa which will be replaced when we get a post to put our Gamma 6 SOX lantern on  ;D

We're not going away on holiday this year, we're spending our money on lamps and the electricity to run them  :)



There are times when I want incandescent back, that extra bit of warmth that isn't present with LEDs. The high CRI 2700K are still off to me, they're just not quite there. And the high CRI 3000K work great, but dimming is ghostly, and I don't see any "warm glow" dimmable LEDs in high CRI, 3000K models. Lastly, my OCD likes light from glass, and plastic is eeeehhh...
However most of my fixtures are globes, shades or covered lamps. So I don't have to see the typical LED half-dome design.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: HPS_250 on January 08, 2020, 10:24:38 PM
You can get 2700K warm glow lamps from Philips, but they are only 85 CRI. They dim well though. It will look great when you can put up that SOX fixture on a floor lamp pole!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: fluorescent lover 40 on January 08, 2020, 10:43:45 PM
My house is mostly LED. Of course my room is all fluorescent (except a LED desk lamp, but I use that occasionally).

There are still two 65w BR30s and a 72w halogen in use but those are due to be replaced.

In my kitchen, there are four fluorescent undercabinet lights: One F8T5 preheat (now in my collection), two rapid start F20T12s (one has a shorted ballast, the other has no lamp), and a F15 (only one that works and also has a lamp in it). Unfortunately, those are due to be replaced (but I get to have them) as well.

The fluorescent light in the laundry room was converted to LED (with LED tubes) by me.

All the PL-C fixtures will get LED retrofit lamps.


NOTE: I still live with my parents (not a bum lol) and I'm not old enough to get my own house yet (to give you an idea of how old I am). My parents are in charge of the lighting. I just do the work if they tell me to. All the LEDs are either Feit, Ecosmart (HD brand), or Philips.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: fluorescent lover 40 on January 08, 2020, 11:41:42 PM

I still have those snap switches and the mercury's with the older engraved type plastic plates in some of the house. All the lights have been changed.
Nice. Take your time. I can wait. Haven't got anything lately because of school so yeah. I am checking all the lights that are on my "watchlist" though.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Metal Halide Boy on January 09, 2020, 08:33:54 AM
We have buying LED bulbs for a while, The oldest is about 2-3 years old, And still looks bright!
Our whole house is mostly LED Feit electric bulbs.
The only fixtures I have not converted is the laundry light, Shed "Shop light", Desk light, Bathroom light above toilet (Which is an Incandescent bulb and has been going about 3 hours a day, But has been there for 10+ Years), Outdoor flood lights (We actually have started converting one bulb to LED), Attic light, A couple lights in the living room (Incandescent 3 Way), And 2 Bedrooms
(First has a lone fluorescent, Always pretty dim, The second has 3, 50 Watt halogen GU10 bulbs, Also been going for 10+ Years but at about 6 Hours a day).

All of our LED bulbs have been going strong for a while, Even though the thermal conditions are not prime(Hot Florida weather, lots of windows, And out of the way of Air Conditioning).

We are used to LED lighting, And everyone except me can't handle daylight lighting, Unless it's sunlight. :)
We have a No-CFL rule in our house, Unless they are kept in their boxes and in a safe place (My light bulb stash).


Have you converted your house to LED? Just don't use the cheap Ebay bulbs.

NO!! We are working to convert are house BACK to Incandescent! My dad has been buying LEDs for a while, and when he put one in the busy living room, it died within 3 days!!!
I Quickly replaced it with a good old GE Indcandesant. As for CFL, they are going to be used more and more!! :)
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sox35 on January 09, 2020, 09:00:37 AM
NO!! We are working to convert are house BACK to Incandescent! My dad has been buying LEDs for a while, and when he put one in the busy living room, it died within 3 days!!!
I Quickly replaced it with a good old GE Indcandesant. As for CFL, they are going to be used more and more!! :)

Well done  ;D

We are mainly using incandescents now, except when we're using SOX lamps  :D

We have a 28W 2D in the bathroom and another will be going up in the kitchen soon, there's a CFL in the bedroom at the moment but when that dies it will be replaced by an incandescent.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: istilluseLEDs on January 12, 2020, 03:55:05 PM
Im also in the process of a conversion, all of the lights in my room and office are LEDs allthough there are some lights in our kitchen and conservatory which are either CFLs or Halogens, which are slowly dying. I've gone through quite a few LEDs in my office so far as to be fair i had mostly bought chinese crap ones since i really didnt care much about lighting at the time but now i realize how horribly made those are. I now use a JCB 15w e27 LED bulb as a main light in my office and i have 3 overhang warm white Sylvania MR16 bulbs, in my room i have 3 "longlifebulbs.co.uk" 3000k MR16 bulbs as overheads. I'm loving my decision of bulbs so far and am hoping that they actually last a decent amount of time lol.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Mandolin Girl on February 24, 2020, 12:34:32 PM
Well done  ;D

We are mainly using incandescents now, except when we're using SOX lamps  :D

We have a 28W 2D in the bathroom and another will be going up in the kitchen soon, there's a CFL in the bedroom at the moment but when that dies it will be replaced by an incandescent.

I can happily report that we are now an LED free zone, apart from ones that are used as indicators.  :bulbman: :bulbman: :bulbman: ;D
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: CreeRSW207 on February 06, 2021, 08:42:19 PM
My house still has incandescent and 2 fluorescent fixtures and bulbs. New installs are LED. Every time I buy LED bulbs, its something different every time! Lol. My dad has talked about replacing bulbs with LED but he is still installing incandescent.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Desultory13 on February 07, 2021, 12:29:23 AM
Converted? Haven't had to. Don't plan to either. My kitchen and both bathrooms still use T12 fluorescents along with a healthy supply in stock.
My dining room still has incandescents in the chandelier.
My living room lamps have CFLs but I'm just about out of those and they will be converted back to incandescents when necessary.
Incandescent for the patio light.
All of my track lights use PAR30s and R20s, depends on the tracks.
1 bedroom is entirely incandescent.
The second bedroom does have 1 daylight LED, which I bought since I couldn't find daylight CFLs anymore but I'm not happy with the LED and plan to replace it as that's what eBay is for.
Let's see what else, since I cook a lot the range hood has an incandescent, which is a huge help for additional light on the counter.
And several other various incandescent bulbs for accent lighting.
My new self ballasted PAR38 CMH lamps are working out great so no problems there.
All in all traditional light sources that I plan to keep while I continue to build up my stash of incandescents and maybe some daylight CFLs.
OH BTW the fluorescent ballasts are all magnetic except for 2 replacements, which are electronic but I had no choice as they are for F72 slimlines and magnetic wasn't going to happen.
So there you have it.
This is how an electrician lights his home.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: sox35 on February 07, 2021, 07:51:29 AM
Proper light bulbs, absolutely. We are all incandescents now, except for the kitchen, bathroom and one small cupboard, which have 2D CFL's. There is one L*D built into the fridge which unfortunately is not user-replaceable, so we're stuck with that  :'(
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: CreeRSW207 on February 07, 2021, 09:14:26 AM
There is one L*D built into the fridge which unfortunately is not user-replaceable, so we're stuck with that  :'(
Interesting, mine has an incandescent inside.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Mandolin Girl on February 07, 2021, 09:16:32 AM
Our fridge was bought towards the end of 2015, so by then the march of L*D had taken over.  :'(
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Bubbler Tube on February 07, 2021, 01:01:11 PM
Sitting Room and Bedroom Are Daylight  :cfl1: Hall Way is a Normal  :cfl1: Bathroom is a Daylight 2D Kitchen is a Proper Tube With a Plinky Starter
NO ICKY L Crap Here!!!
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Econolite03 on February 11, 2021, 05:06:07 PM
I converted my whole house using primarily Philips LEDs (2016-2018) to reduce energy costs, with the exception for specialty lighting. Of course, all old bulbs that I removed end up in my collection.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: joseph_125 on February 11, 2021, 06:31:16 PM
I'll be honest, I have quite a few LEDs in use in places where I would have formerly used CFLs. The rooms I have brightly lit primarily use linear fluorescent and outdoor areas are a mix of LED and HID. LED for when I want instant light and low light output and HID for high brightness long burn scenarios.
Title: Re: Have you converted your house?
Post by: Rodalco on February 20, 2021, 01:12:22 AM
We live in a 5 bedroom house.
Two bedrooms are still on incandescent lamps 40/60/75 Watts.
The others on CFL or LED lamps.
Bathroom, hall and dining are linear fluorescent lamps.
Lounge is a mixture of LED and CFL lamps and a few home made low power coloured LED lamps.
Kitchen has LED corncob and normal LED and CFL lamps
Computer room on Linear fluro and corncob LED lamp.
WC's are on incandescent lamps which have been there for >10 years.
Laundry is on CFL.
Garage is on Linear fluorescent tubes and LED street lights.
Workshop has LED streetlight, linear fluro tubes and CFL's
Basement is on 100 Watt incandescent and 150 LPS streetlight.
Driveway has two 35 Watt SOX lamps
Deck has two HPS 50 Watt Sylvania B2224 lamps.
Pilot indicator lamps are Neon Ne 2, LED and incandescent.
Diesel Generator panel has incandescent pilot lamps