Lighting-Gallery.net
General => Off-Topic => Topic started by: wattMaster on October 14, 2016, 07:17:03 PM
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What do you think of R22?
I think that the "bans" of it are not needed, as people will generally get the "Eco-Friendly R410A" and solve the pr.oblem without doing anything else.
As for it being more efficient, I have an air conditioner that uses R22, (9 EER, from 1993) and one that uses R410A, (8.6 EER, from 2015) so that is busted.
Quieter? The bigger air conditioner (R22) is quieter than the smaller one with R410A.
And for the ozone-layer depletion, can't the seals just be made better?
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R410A is more efficient at cooling than R22. R22 has an ozone depletion potential of 0.055 but it is a very potent greenhouse gas, being 1810 times more potent then carbon dioxide. R410A has a greenhouse potential of 1725.
As far as making the seals better, the refrigerant attacks almost everything except the lines and everything in the compressor. So nothing else could really be substituted.
They are using R290 for a lot more units though, which is propane.
I REALLY hope you are not venting any of these gases into the atmosphere! Propane is safe to vent, just don't light a match or make sparks!
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I don't want to vent any kind of refrigerant into the atmosphere, but it seems like there is a lot of greenwash.
Propane likely shouldn't be used for refrigeration because if you get a leak, get ready for for explosive possibilities!
I just don't want to have to trash any old air conditioners that I find.
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New freezers in stores are using propane now.
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New freezers in stores are using propane now.
I haven't seen them here yet, but I have seen some using some other kind of refrigerant that I can't remember.
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Well, I vented about 7 pounds of R410A this past year. My heat pump had a leak in one of the fittings in the outside unit. I only noticed when it was +7 degrees outside and the auxiliary heater would turn on every time the thermostat clicked on. The technicians discovered I had no refrigerant left, welded the fittings and filled up again. These things happen. Had I known I had a leak, I would have called the technicians earlier.
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Well, I vented about 7 pounds of R410A this past year.
Theoretically, you should be in big trouble for doing that! :o
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My seeing on this is, as long as we take care to recycle used refrigerants properly, the identity of the refrigerant used become less important than other things, and primarily the waste and resource waste from pointless replacement of existing systems that can still work for many more years
The R410A system pressure is higher than R22, so it is critical that all parts (and primarily compressor internals...) are made sturdy. And this is what i am most concerned with when it comes to R410A. Not because of technological difficulty to make them such, but because now is not the 80s/90s and they dont make the compressors to the same grade they used to
The higher pressure R410A calls for thicker walls on the liquid line between units. Yet i heard from technicians many times that when doing retrofits, they would more trust 90s hardware made for R22 to hold the pressure of R410A, than present day hardware actually rated for R410A (after flushing from the incompatible oil)
Making the compressors (and generally all parts that require removing the refrigerant to replace them, and more generally all parts) to last is the most environmentally important thing that can be done
There is (hopefully, unless some dope at the fridge factory forgot to pump the Vacuum first) no Oxygen inside the refrigerant system, so the Propane can't be ignited by e.g. arcing of the motor inside the compressor (the motor is inside the refrigerant atmosphere in sealed compressors, which is all small/medium units)
The units present the risk of fire or explosion when :
- There is a leak, which may lead to explosion
- There is a fire in the building and the unit is in that fire. When some pipe connection fails, there will be a flare from the escaping Propane
So far it is not much different than storing a small Propane tank for use as fuel. If you are carefull with it, the benefit outweights the dangers
But then there is one more risk that does not apply to the propane tank :
- There is electric connection going from outside to inside the Propane atmosphere
The motor is inside the compressor, so there must be electrical connection going through. This is done by 3 pins (for Run and Start coils) that are potted in Epoxy or something similar through the metal body. If there is arcing on one of those pins (as result of bad connection), it may go on until the isolator fails, and this way make a hole for leaks, right there where the arcing is. That is, one initial failure can create by itself all the circumstances for a fire
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The R22 air conditioner is built very sturdily for being a window air conditioner, because they are usually made low cost.
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Read here (https://translate.google.co.il/translate?sl=iw&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=iw&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hayadan.org.il%2Freducing-hfc-gaz-1610162&edit-text=&act=url) (Untranslated) (http://www.hayadan.org.il/reducing-hfc-gaz-1610162).
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Read here (https://translate.google.co.il/translate?sl=iw&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=iw&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hayadan.org.il%2Freducing-hfc-gaz-1610162&edit-text=&act=url) (Untranslated) (http://www.hayadan.org.il/reducing-hfc-gaz-1610162).
Sounds like you can choose from a little ozone depletion or lots of the greenhouse effect.
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The only non greenhouse refrigerants are propane, which is very flammable, and ammonia, which is very toxic, so they are dangerous for use as refrigerants for refrigerators and A/C systems.
Most newer A/C here uses R410A refrigerant, which isn't belongs to the HFCs family of freons, and have less greenhouse effects than HFCs, HCFCs and CFCs families of freons, but is still have greenhouse effects.
The first refrigerators and A/C systems, indeed used ammonia, which caused serious fatal accidents when leaked.
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Make all connections sturdy to last 10's years without leaking. Weld them where applicable or crimp very well where they cant be welded
Make the compressor of proper components, made of high grade metal and machined precisely, use motor with copper windings and not aluminum, and fit it with all needed electrical protections (undervoltage, momentary outage ...)
Make the refrigerator body sturdy enough to mechanically withstand use and abuse, without turning into a rusty bent box with broken shelf supports inside
And nobody will have to touch the refrigerant inside for the next 40+ years
Sure, when fridges break every 3 to 5 years and the refrigerant from some of them finds its way out when they are scrapped, it contributes a lot to the O3 depletion and requires to find something that will have as little effect as possible. But oh wait, the production and disposal and transporting of all those 3 year refrigerators is polluting even if there was no refrigerant in them at all....
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You really have to consider the big picture when trying to ban things, such as MV lighting and CFC refrigerants.
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There were other uses for CFCs and freon beside as a refrigerant such as:
1. Solutions and chemical for industrial cleaning.
2. Foaming substances (Manufacturing of styrofoam for example)
3. Fire extingushing chemicals
4. Sprays
In these applications, they would cause pollution much more than as a refrigerant in refrigerators and A/C, if maintened correctly, and not disposed.
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There were other uses for CFCs and freon beside as a refrigerant such as:
1. Solutions and chemical for industrial cleaning.
2. Foaming substances (Manufacturing of styrofoam for example)
3. Fire extingushing chemicals
4. Sprays
In these applications, they would cause pollution much more than as a refrigerant in refrigerators and A/C, if maintened correctly, and not disposed.
Halon is nasty too.
The air conditioner lineset flush for acid is R134A under a different name too.