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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: dor123 on February 08, 2015, 10:36:16 AM



Title: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: dor123 on February 08, 2015, 10:36:16 AM
 Google translated  (https://translate.google.co.il/translate?sl=iw&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=iw&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globes.co.il%2Fnews%2Farticle.aspx%3Fdid%3D1000994965&edit-text=&act=url) (Original hebrew version)  (http://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1000994965).


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on February 08, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
At least how it reads in the translation, it is plain bu****it. And I don't think the translation itself is that far off. By the way it is not the first time I see such text...

The health risks cited there are not related of the exact type of light, but are the same for any light source. So when the problem was deemed as minor with present systems, just the transfer to LED's could not make it any worse. So if there is anything to worry about, it is the tendency to illuminate everything. But that is not cited there, nor it is related to LED only.

I would even guess the contrary: The LED power saving does not happen not on the efficacy alone, but solely by reducing the need of the generated total amount of light by both better optics (distributing the light better over the designated area), as well as the availability of lower power lanterns without the side effect of lower efficacy usually present with the traditional light sources (e.g. when lighting a passage under a bridge requires 2000lm of directed light, a 70W HPS giving off 6500lm was used, as no other light source meant less power; with LED's you may just install the required 2000lm).
All that lead to one thing: Less waste light, so less of the light pollution. And that means less health problems from the lack of day vs night lighting contrast.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Roi_hartmann on February 08, 2015, 12:14:11 PM
I remember hearding something about dangers of leds recently in radio. At that case it was some news about study giving concern that certain kind of blue light could potentially cause degeneration in eyes and really long term exposure could cause blindness. I dont remember exact details but problem was not leds itself  but led lights tend to have much more this "dangerous" blue light than other light sources.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on February 09, 2015, 06:25:25 AM
@Roi:
You mean the claims like "The blue peak is dangerous...blahblah..."?
Well, a peak in the blue in the same region is with us since the first non-incandescent light sources.
And suddenly, when we have LED's, such peak "become dangerous"? Do you still believe that?

It is again the same BS, now "in light blue"...

The only thing these campaigns do (and I think it is their sole purpose): Make all the opponents of the light bulb bans, looking as idiots, so to be ignored. Nothing else.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Roi_hartmann on February 09, 2015, 08:43:47 AM
@Roi:
You mean the claims like "The blue peak is dangerous...blahblah..."?
Well, a peak in the blue in the same region is with us since the first non-incandescent light sources.
And suddenly, when we have LED's, such peak "become dangerous"? Do you still believe that?

It is again the same BS, now "in light blue"...

The only thing these campaigns do (and I think it is their sole purpose): Make all the opponents of the light bulb bans, looking as idiots, so to be ignored. Nothing else.

I did some seach and it appears that the news I heard was based on article in Financial Time by Charles Wallace. Date is 29.12.2014. There seems to be paywall and Im too lazy to register but If someone wants to do that heres the link to articele http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a78d6b68-85ef-11e4-a105-00144feabdc0.html

What I found out tho was that main concerns was something called age-related macular degeneration. Not sure if this the same hazard you mentioned. Probably not something to lose you night sleep.

It could be worth of mentioning that there is probably little money and "business will" to conduct studys about hazard of something like LED ligthing. there is huge money going in that business and its like cellphones and cancer. If someone could point out clearly that cellphone usage in long term had relation to cancer that could mean huge losses of money to many people and company and severely damage that business segment. It could be like tobacco industry and hazard of smoking.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on February 09, 2015, 11:52:35 AM
The regeneration during sleeping is indeed adversely affected by the light (the brain is programmed so, the cold light means you are in an open area, so vulnerable towards predators, so causes you to be on alert fr possible "danger", while the darkness and/or warm light means you are in the safety of your (home) cave, with the home protective fire burning. That was the truth for nearly a million years, so the evolution has "programmed" the mankind in that way, the last few 1000 years or even just the century with the colder artificial light is just way too short to overcome that...)
But the point is, it does not matter what is the light source, it is just ANY light, from WHATEVER light source, what causes the problem. Regardless if it comes from MV's, fluorescents or LED's. Or even reflected sunlight from the moon, by the way...

So just now coming and telling "the LED light causes that issue, so people should not use the LED's" is nothing else than a complete BS.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: merc on February 09, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
The regeneration during sleeping is indeed adversely affected by the light (the brain is programmed so, the cold light means you are in an open area, so vulnerable towards predators, so causes you to be on alert fr possible "danger", while the darkness and/or warm light means you are in the safety of your (home) cave, with the home protective fire burning.
Yeah, that's why warm white lamps (no matter what lamp type) are much more popular for home use and you can get them in every shop that sells lamps.
But you can probably get re-programmed. We've got a 6400K circline even in our living room and bedroom (for the last 10 years). When the living room one went EOL a few months ago and I needed to wait for about 10 days for a new one with a 2700K substitute lamp, it was so strange, weird and not relaxing at all!
I spent a few nights in a tent above the Arctic Circle in summer and the light at night was pretty fatiguing. Here, at about 50 deg. latitude we're used to at least 7.5 hours without sunlight (about an hour less in total darkness) but Roi might find their midsummer white nights quite normal.

So just now coming and telling "the LED light causes that issue, so people should not use the LED's" is nothing else than a complete BS.
Exactly. Moreover you can choose from a wide range of LED colour temperatures so you can choose really warm ones if they suit you best.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on February 09, 2015, 11:21:19 PM
Don't believe you could be "reprogrammed" so easily. The recently discovered mechanism how that exactly works quite proves that - if the response if in generation of certain hormones, they will just do their work. You would need change in the genome for that, so even when you dare to do that artificially, it would not be you, but earliest your kids benefiting from that change. And via the natural evolution way it will take 1000's of generations, so another 100's k years...
However that discovery could least to the possibility to suppress that effect artificially - via some supplements or maybe better to say prescription drugs. Those may help the people working at night, so without the ability to sleep in real darkness. But that would be the case for really special cases - I would still prefer the natural way of sleeping in the dark night...


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: randacnam7321 on April 11, 2015, 10:09:42 PM
It sounds like people objecting to something for the wrong reasons.  I hear the same thing with regards to smart meters and RFI from their wireless comms nubblies being a health hazard.  It isn't (waaaaaaay too low field levels for that), but such stupid arguments detract from legitimate problems with them (hacking vulnerabilities, reliability, lack of control over my mains feed, shonky billing practices, et cetera et ad infinitum).


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 17, 2015, 12:15:09 AM
Some LEDs contain gallium arsenide, which is toxic, but not in the low concentrations of the LEDs themselves. The highest risk of death caused by the LEDs are probably fried drivers, IIRC.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on May 17, 2015, 02:39:48 AM
The article seconds what i have already thought in the past by myself, based on my own experience

Article looks correct, or at least plausible, to me



When looking at actual things under LED light, the strength and saturation of colors of FEW things i see - especially in the red side - is disproportional to what they are in reality, despite the LED having high CRI

As i guess it what happens :

LED spectrum is continuous, but consisting of only 2 bands : the peak from the chip in the blue and the wide band from the phosphor centered in the orange, both of which are high. Colors covered in the wide band area will look great, colors in the far sides not so much

Every surface (even colored) reflects somewhat all wavelengths, especially ones closer to its actual color. Say a dark red rose reflects some little orange too. Under LED it will look a bit orange-ish, since the LED light contains much more orange than red, the orange will win in the reflected light by quantity

Fluorescent spectrum is not continuous, it have few thinner peaks from the mercury and 3 thinner bands from the phosphors. Colors in the center of the spectrum will look good, colors in the ends will look darker but not of the wrong color.... Same rose may look not as bright but also not as orange

This is also pronounced in places where we (even unconsciously) evaluate how natural/unnatural something is based on minor differences in its color. When we look at other humans - at human skin color for example, minor difference in the actual color may make it look very different - Much more so than when looking at inanimate objects with slightly different colors. People may look weird under LED lighting sometimes



I feel like straining out more, and being awake less, when i am looking at stuff under LED light (and this does not have to do anytihng with light distribution pattern, i am comparing with farily well diffused LED lights)

Generally i am in the thinking that if our body can detect that something is harmfull to it, it will try to give a warning. I see the eye strain feeling as a warning of this type

The blue peak in the spectum well explains that to me

Fluorescent have few peaks too, but the difference is the FEW. There is not so much energy concentrated in a single wavelength

HPS have a single huge peak too, but orange. I use HPS commonly as work light outdoors and dont feel any eye strain or unawakeness. I think this is because yellow/orange light does not affect in us something that blue light does

Possibly the blue light triggers something in us that is supposed to act on moon light


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on May 17, 2015, 03:22:17 AM
It's just the things you are used to see daily look in a bit different, unusual way. Once you get used to it, the brain accepts it as "one of the usual look" and stops panicking.
It is again a form of protection instinct: 1000's years ago the different look may have been caused either by something casting a shadow (Isn't that going to eat me?) or the vision was altered (Something poisonous in the air?). When nothing happen after some time, apparently nothing had "eaten you", so it is not worth panicking - and the new look get's accepted...
And of course, that is nothing special for LED's only, this problem came practically with every new light source (maybe except incandescent, as that is very similar to the fire).

And for the last note: Indeed, it is the blue component together with the dim light, what triggers what was supposed to be triggered by the moon light.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: dor123 on May 17, 2015, 03:52:25 AM
And what about the cancer that they mentioned in the article?


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on May 17, 2015, 04:03:24 AM
And what about the cancer that they mentioned in the article?

Haven't you noticed, that in all such articles about any "danger", every such "danger" discussed "may cause cancer"?
Because cancers are so little known and so feared, they are just very "popular" in all such "warning" texts.
So you may read "Drinking water may cause cancer", "Not drinking water may cause cancer", "sleeping longer than 8 hours may cause cancer", as well as "Sleeping less than 8 hours may cause cancer" and so on...
There is just no means proving ANY discussed thing MAY NOT cause one...


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on May 17, 2015, 05:16:52 AM
I broke it up to "How things look" and "Eye strain feeling", and want to treat each thing separately :



"How things look"

The light of LED seems inferior quality to me (and in a way that is not adequately represented by its CRI rating), but this alone does not mean it has any implications besides how some things look



"Eye strain"

The warning sign is not a shadow of a big object (so warning of something external, which we can estimate and choose what to do) but the feeling of our body itself (strain, fatigue, concentration etc), those are ultimately the only ways our body can give us any feedback about its condition

Ignoring that or "getting used to" is the absolutely wrong thing to do this time

Consider another example :

Your office setup (screen height, chair height, computer peripherals position etc) is bad, and you feel strain when using it. Continuing to use it like that is allready proved to cause long run health implications. Making changes to it by trial and error until you find the correct setup will make your office work healthier

In the lighting field, so long as its "things look weird" - no problem. When it comes to strain and the like, then it is the sign that something genuinely is not right




Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: dor123 on May 17, 2015, 07:03:20 AM
Interesting. I didn't even thought about that. Finally the writers on article about lighting health concerns, writes good article with health issue that can be proved by some means (Except mentioning the cancer, which is one of the most fearing Illness, as it is incurable, and there are only few proved causes to it occurance [Smoking]).


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 24, 2015, 08:48:59 PM
Another obvious danjer is if one malfunctions and pours out failed capacitor smoke.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on May 25, 2015, 12:24:54 AM
To be fair, the "type A" capacitors used with magnetic HID and Fluorescent let out smoke and catch fire very well.....


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 25, 2015, 11:13:51 AM
Some HIDs don't need caps to function properly and there are always preheat ballast chokes. Plus the fluorescent caps are in a metal ballast case so that will extinguish the flame pretty quick…   Plus, LEDs are known for their suckiness here on LG.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on May 25, 2015, 01:14:21 PM
Over here (240V) pretty much none of the low wattage HIDs (up to 400W at least) dont need the capacitor, and none of the fluorescent except some types of 8ft dont need it either

However, all magnetic ballasted lighting without capacitor is NPF. When you put more then a few NPF lights on a circuit, you have a problem : The current draw becomes significant, and with the more lights you add, you can easy reach or exceed the current capacity of the circuit....

So the capacitor is added straight between the line Hot and Neutral in every lantern, to correct the power factor and take only the current that is really needed


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 25, 2015, 02:15:23 PM
I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure that my HPS 70w security light doesn't have a cap. I may add one to raise the power factor. And with the caps for the 8ft fluorescents, I saw something on here where the cap was used to raise the 80w ballast capacity to 125 to provide more of an inductive kick. Is what I'm saying correct?


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on May 25, 2015, 03:40:19 PM
It has nothing to do with the kick, but with the headroom for lamp arc voltage. The British 100W and 125W 8ft lamps use the same ballast, but the 125 have higher arc voltage - one that is marginally too high to work with a choke on 240V. The capacitor in series allow to push the limit a bit more and still use a choke


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on May 25, 2015, 04:24:37 PM
Ok I understand now, thank you.  :)


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Lanternbro on June 07, 2015, 08:01:54 AM
LED's do not need complicated ballasts, some companies offer a transformer/inductor with just a rectifier.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on June 07, 2015, 08:24:31 AM
I took apart an LED lamp from eBay and it had a transformer as small as one you'd see in an iPhone charjer. It was a decent lamp, too bad it died.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on June 07, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
I took apart an LED lamp from eBay and it had a transformer as small as one you'd see in an iPhone charjer. It was a decent lamp, too bad it died.

The isolated LED ballasts are essentially the same circuits as the phone chargers, even the wattage is about the same (3..10W), only the voltage uses to be higher (8..12V for the "3W" or "5W", 11..16V for the "4W" or some "8W",...). The control is a bit different, because the main operating mode for the LED's is in the constant current regime, reaching the voltage limit means an "open load" fault and with many designs it shuts down the ballast for some second or till the input power is removed (the chargers operate in both constant current during fast charge and then constant voltage for the top off part).
And many LED's are even simplified: No input filter (mainly for the dimmer compatible versions), less of filtering on the secondary (no wiring acting as an antenna to radiate the residual HF), just an inductor instead of the transformer (if the isolation from the mains is not necessary, when the LED's are covered), etc.

Many really simple low power (up to 3W) designs use just series capacitor and a bridge rectifier (plus some kind of filter capacitor parallel to the LED's, but that is not that much effective to supress any current ripple) feeding a series string of the LED's, for those low power levels it was the cheapest way to power the LED's. But even that range gets replaced by the DCDC converter based concepts, with the competition of the modern IC's the "simple circuit" becomes too expensive due to the rather high cost and large size of the ballasting capacitor (e.g. with the "filament LED" designs over 2W you would not be able to fit the required series capacitor just into the socket space...).


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on June 07, 2015, 03:10:29 PM
Noth only that, the advantage of the isoalted designs is safety, as with them the exposed SMD LEDs on the faces of the lamp (as most Ebay LED lamps are) are not live at mains voltage

But i managed to blow 2 of those in a row at a friend's home, within seconds of each otehr....

He was bragging about how cheap and good the Ebay LED lamps are..... I decided to check what will happen if i hold the switch of the lamp in the center position, so it is arcing in series with the lamp. After 2 seconds of arcing the input rectifier n the LED lamp blew up, emitting a puff of smoke from a hole in the front of the lamp

Then he was like "doesnt matter i got 5 of them for the proce of one". Unplugged the desk lamp, screwed another one in, plugged it back in. The switch was left in the arcing position..... The new one blew up with a puff of smoke after 2 seconds as well



Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on June 07, 2015, 03:35:44 PM
The one I got was a color changing spotlight of I think four watts. It was like $15. To be fair, I kind of cooked it on an IS ballast once it fialed.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on June 07, 2015, 03:41:18 PM
@Ash, I think your friend has a case of type 1 LEDisease. Symptoms include:
Bragging about LED
Defending the failure of them
Declaring how cheap they are
Being a bit snobby about the failure. Ex: doesn't matter, I got 5 for the price of 1, etc.)


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on June 08, 2015, 11:10:15 PM
Noth only that, the advantage of the isoalted designs is safety, as with them the exposed SMD LEDs on the faces of the lamp (as most Ebay LED lamps are) are not live at mains voltage

It is of course necessary when the LED's are accessible, but in such designs is usually quite a lot of space.

But if you take the design of the "filament" LED's, there is does not make much sense (the incandescents do not have any either and yet are not assumed as dangerous in that respect).
The thing is, the nonisolated buck allows to make the design way more robust and way less demanding on the individual components - it allows the input voltage to really reach above 750V without causing any overstress yet (so quite sufficient room for a VDR to really do it's job); with flyback and all isolated designs that limit is barely 500V, what is way too low for a 230V mains (the VDR's rated for 230VAC at the full rated pulse current could reach usually 700V peak voltage, so does not protect the isolated convertor with the most common 750V rated switching elements).

Plus it does not suffer from safety issues like some part usually being isolated, so treated like that (= touched carelessly, because "it is isolated") becomes alive when some fault happens. When something really looks like alive (the internals of a filament LED look the same as the ordinary bulb even when smashed, so make people cautious upfront)...
This psychological safety aspect I see as extremely strong (observing how people react on faults), while still completely neglected by all standards (it goes slightly against the direction of "cover everything live")...


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Ash on June 09, 2015, 03:36:25 PM
The smashed LED filament lamp will still work, so onece the user see that, he will be tempted to leave it in use....

I think that if isolation inside a transfrmer is properly made (sufficient thickness of material, reliable material that won't melt through under normal & expected fault temperature / duration), it can be assumed as reliable isolation transformer. You trust the isolation in the phone charger every time you use it....

Whether the isolation found in Ebay stuff is reliable to trust like that is another question, usually no it is not


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Solanaceae on June 09, 2015, 07:01:12 PM
If think it would last longer if it's open air since it will get more cooling airflow.


Title: Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?
Post by: Medved on June 09, 2015, 10:52:54 PM
The smashed LED filament lamp will still work, so onece the user see that, he will be tempted to leave it in use....

The halogens continue to operate as well, that is not assumed as safety issue. Plus then physically breaking anything usually exposes live wires...
With those filament ones it really does not make sense.
The transformer may be smaller, but then everything will operate way closer to the technology limits, with severe consequences on the efficiency and reliability. Plus the worse efficiency would mean higher losses, so higher temperature, so even worse reliability.

Problem is with those uncovered "corn" lamps, there the conductors are accessible without breaking anything.