320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « on: January 15, 2021, 01:17:07 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
After learning that F40T12 NPF preheat fluorescent ballasts can drive slightly lower wattage fluorescent tubes such as F30T8 and F30T12 tubes, I am wondering if I can apply this same principle to safely operate 320w and 350w pulse start metal halide lamps and 360w energy saving probe start metal halide lamps on a 400w HX NPF mercury vapor ballast or a 400w NPF mercury vapor reactor/choke ballast designed for 240v mains assuming I use a superimposed ignitor in the circuit when operating the pulse start lamps and a 750v 2 wire parallel ignitor for the 360w energy saving probe start metal halide lamps?
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	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #1 on: January 15, 2021, 02:03:57 AM » Author: dor123
The power factor don't affects lamp operation.
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #2 on: January 15, 2021, 02:34:22 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
For some reason, I seem to understand that HPF fluorescent ballasts will overheat lower arc voltage fluorescent tubes and overdrive lower current fluorescent tubes while NPF fluorescent ballasts seem to run slightly lower current fluorescent tubes without overdriving them and lower arc voltage fluorescent tubes without overheating the ballast. I wonder why that is true?
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Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #3 on: January 15, 2021, 03:50:54 AM » Author: dor123
The American lighting manufacturers, sells NPF and LPF ballasts as home grade, so they are designed to have lower current than HPF ballasts that are sold as high grades.
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #4 on: January 15, 2021, 04:07:31 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
So, the original question is whether it is safe to operate 320w and 350w pulse start metal halide lamps on a 400w NPF mercury vapor series choke or HX NPF ballast assuming I use a superimposed ignitor in the circuit for those lamps and whether it is safe to run 360w energy saving probe start metal halide lamps on 400w NPF mercury vapor series chokes and 400w HX NPF mercury vapor ballasts assuming I have a 750v 2 wire parallel ignitor in the circuit.
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Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #5 on: January 15, 2021, 07:47:55 AM » Author: Medved
Quote from: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA on January 15, 2021, 04:07:31 AM So, the original question is whether it is safe to operate 320w and 350w pulse start metal halide lamps on a 400w NPF mercury vapor series choke or HX NPF ballast assuming I use a superimposed ignitor in the circuit for those lamps and whether it is safe to run 360w energy saving probe start metal halide lamps on 400w NPF mercury vapor series chokes and 400w HX NPF mercury vapor ballasts assuming I have a 750v 2 wire parallel ignitor in the circuit. With the pulse start types, you better check their current rating. In Europe 400W ones (the 320/350W belong there) use to come in two flavors: One designed to operate on an MV ballast (plus ignitor), so are 3.2A arcs. The second is rated to work on (European) HPS ballasts, so 4.xx (forgot the exact value). If the lamp rating shows M155, it is the 3.2A variant (in fact M155 is H33 with added 3.5kV ignitor function), so it should work.
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	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #6 on: January 16, 2021, 03:30:27 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Quote from: Medved on January 15, 2021, 07:47:55 AM With the pulse start types, you better check their current rating. In Europe 400W ones (the 320/350W belong there) use to come in two flavors: One designed to operate on an MV ballast (plus ignitor), so are 3.2A arcs. The second is rated to work on (European) HPS ballasts, so 4.xx (forgot the exact value). If the lamp rating shows M155, it is the 3.2A variant (in fact M155 is H33 with added 3.5kV ignitor function), so it should work. From what I understand, the North American 400w M135/M155 pulse start metal halide lamps run at 135v 3.2a while the 320w M132/M154 pulse start metal halide lamps run at 135v 2.63a and the 350w M131 pulse start metal halide lamps run at 135v 2.8a. I do understand that since CWA ballasts are designed to run lamps at a dedicated current, the 320w and 350w pulse start metal halide lamps will be overdriven on a North American 400w H33 CWA ballast assuming I use a superimposed ignitor. What I was curious about was whether the 320w and 350w pulse start metal halide lamps will operate at their proper current on 400w mercury vapor NPF series chokes and 400w HX NPF mercury vapor ballasts assuming I used a superimposed ignitor on both ballast circuits?
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Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #7 on: January 16, 2021, 03:52:10 AM » Author: Medved
The HX or series chokes are tricky: If they are designed so they operate away from the saturation (so voltage drop across the inductance is proportional to the current), the current wont change with the load voltage that much (because the square law the voltages are summing up: OCV^2 = LDrop^2 + Varc^2; when Varc is about half OCV vs short circuit, the Ldrop changes just bybarely 13%). That would lead to nearly ideal constant current source (differing from CWA only because the HX/choke varies tge current with mains voltage, CWA has that effect suppressed) But often ballasts (at least the series choke, but I would expect HX being the same) are designed so they start to saturate when the Ldrop approaches OCV, so making the current to rise steeper with the arc voltage going down. This is used to save on copper (cost and losses) and to ptovide faster warmup. But unless the load curve is exactly specified by the standard (like with HPS), each ballast model may behave differently. And because 400W MV operste at 135V too, the 400W MV balladt will definitely feed there its 3.2A, so the full 400W. With the "320" and "360W" lamps I had in mind the ~110..120V arc energy saver lamps designed to run on the "400W" ballasts (so with "400W" ANSI rating).
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	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #8 on: January 16, 2021, 04:57:37 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Quote from: Medved on January 16, 2021, 03:52:10 AM The HX or series chokes are tricky: If they are designed so they operate away from the saturation (so voltage drop across the inductance is proportional to the current), the current wont change with the load voltage that much (because the square law the voltages are summing up: OCV^2 = LDrop^2 + Varc^2; when Varc is about half OCV vs short circuit, the Ldrop changes just bybarely 13%). That would lead to nearly ideal constant current source (differing from CWA only because the HX/choke varies tge current with mains voltage, CWA has that effect suppressed) But often ballasts (at least the series choke, but I would expect HX being the same) are designed so they start to saturate when the Ldrop approaches OCV, so making the current to rise steeper with the arc voltage going down. This is used to save on copper (cost and losses) and to ptovide faster warmup. But unless the load curve is exactly specified by the standard (like with HPS), each ballast model may behave differently. And because 400W MV operste at 135V too, the 400W MV balladt will definitely feed there its 3.2A, so the full 400W. With the "320" and "360W" lamps I had in mind the ~110..120V arc energy saver lamps designed to run on the "400W" ballasts (so with "400W" ANSI rating). So, will North American 400w H33 mercury vapor HX ballasts North American 400w H33 mercury vapor series chokes, and European 400w mercury vapor series chokes still overdrive the North American 350w M131 and 320w M132/M154 pulse start metal halide lamps assuming superimposed ignitors are used, but properly operate the North American 360w M165 energy saving probe start metal halide lamps assuming a 750v 2 wire parallel ignitor is used? Second, are Westinghouse and North American Philips 300w Econ-o-watt energy saving probe start metal halide lamps that are designed for 400w M59 probe start metal halide ballasts and the 300w energy saving mercury vapor lamps designed for 400w H33 mercury vapor ballasts all safe to use on European 400w mercury vapor series chokes, North American 400w H33 HX NPF mercury vapor ballasts, and 400w H33 mercury vapor series chokes assuming a 750v 2 wire parallel ignitor is used for the Westinghouse/North American Philips 300w energy saving probe start metal halide lamp? Third, is it also safe to operate the North American Philips 330w AllStart C185 ceramic metal halide lamp designed for 400w M59 probe start metal halide ballasts and 400w M135/M155 pulse start metal halide ballasts on European 400w mercury vapor series chokes, North American 400w H33 mercury vapor HX NPF ballasts, and North American 400w H33 mercury vapor series chokes as well assuming I used any ignitor?
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Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #9 on: January 17, 2021, 11:38:56 AM » Author: Medved
With these energy savers you have to be careful whether theu aren't restricted somehow (e.e. "CWA only"). The point here is, the CWA is not conductive for DC from its output, so even when the lamp starts to rectify heavily, CWA won't care at all. But the HX or series choke may get severely overheated, so may need e.g. a thermal cutout protection (very common for European MHs, normally electrically equivalent to HPS, to require thermally protected ballast od a fixture design able to safely contain severe ballast overheating; HPS do not require that, as HPS does not rectify without extinguishing first; MV are assumed to not suffer from the rectification problem either). If there is no restriction (beside the ANSI code, assuming that ANSI code allows different ballast concepts - I don't know the specifications that much, you would have to check the standard), it should be safe. When building a ballast (taking a ballast with some ANSI code and adding an extra ignitor to use it on a lamp with another code qualifies as "designing a ballast"), you should really verify whether the characteristics of the creation match to a reasonable level what the lamp requires. I do not have the detailed standards in front of me, so I may just be guessing based on the few known nominal operating points. As a minimum, you have to do an experiment, measure the arc parameters (current, voltage), observe ballast behavior (excessive hum, temperature,...) while trying at least few voltage levels and other parameters (minimum and maximum mains voltage tolerance, new and worn out lamp,...) and verify the known EOL behavior of the lamp vs how the ballast will respond to it, if it is acceptable (a ballast turning into red hot chunk of iron and copper are likely not within acceptable limits). If all that results in acceptable behavior, you may conclude that ballast to be usable.
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	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #10 on: January 17, 2021, 05:54:29 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
In the meantime, Could i be good to go if I see my 400w HX mercury vapor ballast running my 400w metal halide lamps at the correct arc voltage and current after making measurements with an amp meter?
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DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #11 on: January 17, 2021, 06:32:57 PM » Author: Medved
Quote from: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA on January 17, 2021, 05:54:29 PM In the meantime, Could i be good to go if I see my 400w HX mercury vapor ballast running my 400w metal halide lamps at the correct arc voltage and current after making measurements with an amp meter? As long as tge current is within reasonable limits (-20/+10%), the warmup looks normal for the lamp and the voltage stays in the specified ballpark (the resulting real power should not exceed about 10% above the rating), there is very high chance it will work. It would be good to double check it after the lamp ages a bit, if the setup is really stable. And to be on the safe side, you may equip the ballast with some (resettable) thermal cutout device, which should solve the eventual rectification problem, if that would really be a problem. Definitely reasonably set (corresponding to the max temperature rating temperature at the given spot) cut out device wont hurt...
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	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #12 on: January 17, 2021, 07:14:10 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
I actually did try an aged 400w M59 probe start metal halide lamp on a different 400w H33 HX mercury vapor ballast and 750v 2 wire parallel ignitor and the bulb ran up pretty nicely compared to the other 400w H33 HX mercury vapor ballast I have. In addition, there are some 277v 60hz choke ballasts designed for North American 400w M59 probe start metal halide lamps and North American 400w M135/M155 pulse start metal halide lamps. Both of them use integral ignitors.
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Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #13 on: January 28, 2021, 02:48:52 PM » Author: alexd120
Metal halide bulbs have gotten to confusing with all the new PSMH bulb with all of their own different wattages of bulbs. I'm more of a probe start MH guy there easier to work on.
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	Re: 320w and 350w PSMH and 360w MH lamps on 400w HX NPF MV ballasts and NPF chokes? « Reply #14 on: February 04, 2021, 11:26:28 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
After I received an Osram Sylvania 320w M154 pulse start metal halide lamp today, I ran it on a 400w H33 HX mercury vapor ballast and superimposed ignitor and it ran at 132v and 2.89a, which is a wee bit overdriven compared to its ideal 135v 2.63a operation.
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Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.