Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « on: October 28, 2010, 12:54:21 PM » Author: dor123
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be5iJNOW17g This is a preheat fluorescent fixture with a preheat magnetic ballast for two circular T9 fluorescent lamps connected in parallel in my Hostel. The outer lamp is 40W and the inner one is 32W The rectifying lamp is the inner one of the 32W. The starter ignites the lamp successfully, but the lamp then rectifies and flickers 50hz continuously without any additional reactions of the starter (Sometime very few). The starter still alive and can still reignite the lamp after turning off.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 05:20:48 AM by dor123 »		Logged

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Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 03:42:03 PM » Author: arcblue
That's the one thing I don't like about preheat fixtures. I have noticed that when a lamp or starter is wearing out, this effect happens more often. After a few seconds to a few minutes of operation, the rectifying lamp usually goes out briefly and the starter cycles, then the lamp lights up fully. But I've also had new lamps & starters where the lamp would start, the starter would shut off and the lamp would be rectifying...usually within a few seconds it would then go to normal operation without the cycling of the starter...it was like one cathode hadn't been preheated enough to operate as a cathode, so the lamp rectified until it came up to temperature. It's a similar effect to when rapid-start fixtures are turned on - you start with a dim, flickering glow discharge that eventually "pops on" to a full discharge. I also have one preheat light that always produces an immediate glow discharge when the switch is turned on, but then goes out, the starter cycles, and it starts normally.
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	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 05:29:59 AM » Author: dor123
The israelis Eltam old rapidstart ballasts for F40T12 lamps behaved differed then your rapidstarts. When the lamp initially switched on, instead of the dim, flickering glow discharge, the electrodes of the lamp preheated and after a few seconds, the lamp lit at full brightness, similar in behavior to electronic starter on preheat ballast. If the power removed and then restored, the lamp glows very dim, with flickering, striations and standing waves, and after several, the lamp don't comes instantly to full brightness. Instead the glow stops and the eletrodes again preheating before the lamp lit. Here is an Eltam rapidstart ballast, reignites a 40W T12 lamp near the door of the copying room of the storage of Carmel hospital: http://img16.imageshack.us/i/mvi0464.mp4/ (The thicker lamp is the rapidstart one)(The T8 electronic start nearby, prevents the T12 rapidstart preheating behavior to be visible, i will take a better picture of it).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:33:36 AM by dor123 »		Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 07:12:28 AM » Author: Medved
@arcblue: "I also have one preheat light that always produces an immediate glow discharge when the switch is turned on, but then goes out, the starter cycles, and it starts normally." This show, how starters work: The time, when the starter (and sometimes even the tube) glow dimly, the starter only warm up, but the current is there very low, so lamp electrodes stay cold. Only the time, when the glow disappear(the tube appear completelly out), the starter really preheat electrodes. So even if the starting take few seconds, the preheat time is with most starters only fraction of a second, most time is spent only by heating up the starter. And this is very far from the recommended "heat up till the filament has 4x it's cold resistance", so that is why the cycle life is rather limited...
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	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 05:31:12 PM » Author: arcblue
Have you ever played around with a manual-start preheat fixture, such as those cheap desk lamps that have a "start" and "off" button? You're supposed to hold the start button until the lamp ends glow (electrodes fully preheated) and then let go, and the lamp will burn normally. But, if you press the start button only briefly and then release it, the lamp will glow & flicker for a bit. If you're lucky, the electrodes may get warm enough from the glow discharge that it will completely start, but usually it just flickers for a few seconds and then goes out. You can simulate a glow starter's behaviour by tapping on the switch randomly and the lamp will blink & eventually start. This is why the air thermal starters were more reliable (though boring to watch) than the glowbottle starters, particularly in cold weather - they would preheat the electrodes much longer and the lamp almost always started without blinking. The Arlen Pulsestarter electronic starters behave similarly.
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	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 07:29:39 AM » Author: dor123
The rectifying FC32T9 lamp has been replaced in the last weeks with a new lamp of the chinese LUXTEN brand and the glow starter of the old lamp still alive and operates correctly.
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #7 on: December 03, 2010, 11:14:08 AM » Author: DieselNut
@arcblue, I love your descriptions!  I have lights that behave in all the manners you describe.  I suppose that is not too difficult when I have several hundred preheat fixtures.  LOL  I am glad they are all different.  They have a "personality".  I have a few slow/weak starters in my barn shed where I keep my pigs.  Especially in the cold, sometimes one lamp (out of three in the fixture) will not fully "fire" and it will rectify as dor123 describes.  Occasionally the starter will restrike it, but many times it will just continue rectifying.  Sometimes it will get warm enough to come up to full brightness on its own.  Three of the fixtures have one lamp that sometimes acts this way.
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	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #8 on: December 03, 2010, 01:37:27 PM » Author: SuperSix
Electronic starters will leave an argon filled lamp rectifying at EOL proving one cathode still has some emitter left. I've seen it happening with T12s, 3ft T8s and Circlines before but it's rare to get a krypton/argon tube to rectify, some times the 2ft 18W tubes will but any of the longer ones just seem to extinguish. I think I argued against good starters leaving lamps rectifying but since then I went through all my starters and found one Thorn EMI 115/500 which wont close with a rectifying lamp of 3ft or under. I removed this and another one from some old 80s fittings that were removed from an office, they were the original starters so I suppose the age is the cause of this. Do thermal starters cycle the same as glow starters do when a lamp fails?
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	Re: Evidence that a continuous 50hz flickering can accur also with good starters « Reply #9 on: December 04, 2010, 08:27:18 AM » Author: dor123
Here is a good video of Eltams rapidstart operation after initial switch on: http://img714.imageshack.us/i/xrc.mp4/
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I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.