Author Topic: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!!  (Read 22645 times)
xmaslightguy
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #30 on: December 24, 2011, 11:40:45 AM » Author: xmaslightguy
Quote from: Medved
So yours is the "1 house in your neighborhood"? :-)
As far as lights...Yep! LOL
But there is one other in my neighborhood that does a nice display - not so much strings of lights, but lots of lighted plastic decorations in the yard & stuff
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Alights
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #31 on: December 27, 2011, 01:33:52 PM » Author: Alights
ive had this one LED blue and white string that has had a few LED's just die, theyre plug in style...yet they wont come out , so why even bother including replacement lamps?  the rest of the string still works thankfully  :)
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Ash
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #32 on: December 27, 2011, 02:16:35 PM » Author: Ash
The oull-out incandescent xmas lights (where the lamp is in a pull-out spikey transparent plastic part) can be changed to LEDs and those would be replaceable LEDs then :D

Just add the correct resistor and normal 1N4007 diode to the circuit
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Medved
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #33 on: December 27, 2011, 02:48:55 PM » Author: Medved
The oull-out incandescent Christmas lights (where the lamp is in a pull-out spikey transparent plastic part) can be changed to LEDs and those would be replaceable LEDs then :D

Just add the correct resistor and normal 1N4007 diode to the circuit

You would need diode "antiparallel" to LED's in order to prevent any reverse voltage buildup (even the tiny 1N4007 reverse leakage and capacitive current is able to destroy the LED's quite quickly, if they are allowed to build there more then 5V in reverse)
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xmaslightguy
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #34 on: December 27, 2011, 02:57:28 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
@Alights sometimes the bulbs are just in their sockets really tight ... you simply need a small flat-edged screwdriver to pry them out (can be the case with both LED & Incandescent sets)

Ash/Medved You don't need the 1N4007 diode (and if you put enough LEDs in series you don't need resistors either) ... I have enough home-made (IE: converted from incandescent) LED sets to prove both of those
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #35 on: December 27, 2011, 03:04:07 PM » Author: Ash
1N4007 : In theory the reverse voltage would divide between the LEDs and not be too high for any of them

In reality i dont know how evenly it would divide (or even better : when the sring is outdoors and some moisture leaked in, and forms small leaks across several LEDs essentially transfering the reverse voltage to the others), and possibly there might happen that some LED will see too high voltage

Next question, if the LED begings to pass tiny current when it's max is reached and ballancing the sysem this way, and if this tiny current does not damage the LED itself

Resistor : Without it the string is way more sensitive to line voltage fluctations - small change in line voltage would cause large change in LED current
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Medved
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #36 on: December 27, 2011, 03:48:17 PM » Author: Medved
1N4007 : In theory the reverse voltage would divide between the LEDs and not be too high for any of them

In reality i dont know how evenly it would divide (or even better : when the sring is outdoors and some moisture leaked in, and forms small leaks across several LEDs essentially transfering the reverse voltage to the others), and possibly there might happen that some LED will see too high voltage
You can not rely to this, LED's are extremely sensitive for the overvoltage.
Side note: LED's are the most ESD sensitive component used in the automotive industry today, that comparison include all sub-micron technology microcontrollers and similar devices...


Next question, if the LED begings to pass tiny current when it's max is reached and ballancing the sysem this way, and if this tiny current does not damage the LED itself

The LED start to degrade way sooner (for lower voltage) then there start to flow any current. It is a dielectric breakdown, where when exposed to too high voltage, charges accumulate on the spot of the maximum field intensity, pronouncing this effect even more, so over time the charges form a kind of string. At this time there is still no current yet, but as the local electrical field is increased, the charge string grw faster and faster. But when such string meet the other conductive part, this string cause a short circuit breakdown, what mean destruction. Only at this point start to flow some current, but that is already too late, such LED would not anymore emit any light.

Resistor : Without it the string is way more sensitive to line voltage fluctations - small change in line voltage would cause large change in LED current

Definitely for mains you need quite high voltage to drop on the resistor, mainly to have room for the overvoltage spikes.
For 230V the chain should have voltage drop maximum 170V, the rest should be on the resistor. But be aware, then with such chain the voltages and currents are by far not the same shape, so simple "230V = Vled + Vresistor" does not work at all, you have to work with the actual waveforms. But the best tool for these calculations is the regular table processor software (MS Excell, OpenOffice Calc,...).


Into one column (let say B; in column A you may put the time) you put the mains voltage, how it evolve with time for 1 or 1/2 (see below) sinewave period, in about 100 rows (B = Vmains*sqrt(2)*sin(2*Pi*Freq*A)). Keep the Vmains in a separate cell and use it as a parameter, to allow easy modifications, e.g. to check the sensitivity to mains fluctuations.

Into the 3'rd column (C) you put the equation calculating the resistor voltage drop as difference between the actual voltage on the mains (in given row) minus the expected LED voltage drop (you may keep it in separate cell as a parameter, to allow easy modifications).

Then in the next column (D) you put the equation for circuit current, keeping zero, when the mains voltage is below the LED drop (D = if(B>C;(B-C)/Res;0)). Take the "Res" from some separate cell as a parameter (to allow easy trials).

From the column D you then let the excell calculate:
DCcurrent = average(D)
LEDtotalPower = Vled * DCCurrent
MainsRMSCurrent = sqrt((stdev(D))^2 + DCcurrent^2); that is Excell math trick I use to calculate the rms value of an array of sample values
ResistorPowerDissipation = Res * MainsDCCurrent^2

Then tune the Res value so, you get required DC current for your LED string.

If you use only one halfwaves (via the common 1N4007), let the tool calculate the above from the whole sine period.
If you want to use both halfwaves, so e.g. greatz bridge or LED pairs connected antiparallel (that I would recommend, as it automatically clamp the LED reverse voltage to a safe value; you could use such pair in place of the single incandescent socket), you let the tool use only the first (positive) halfwave.
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randacnam7321
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #37 on: December 29, 2011, 10:26:30 PM » Author: randacnam7321
Many LED Christmas light strings here suffer from early failure due to LED lead corrosion.  They use the same construction as incandescent light strings, except that the copper coated wires on the incandescent lamps do not corrode when in contact with the brass lampholder contacts.  The tin coating and steel core of the LED leads does.  This would not be an issue if the LED was soldered to the connecting wires and encapsulated in a plastic that bonds to the wires and LED case epoxy/plastic decorative LED cover, but very few sets are made that way (Chicom cost cutting).   >:(
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Medved
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #38 on: December 30, 2011, 08:15:46 AM » Author: Medved
@randacnam7321:
The covering with plastic won't work any better, the water would seep in anyway.Even the plastic body of the LED itself is not hermetically sealed, nor are the plastic semiconductor packages (the chips inside have to have their own protection against the humidity).

Incandescents do not have this problem not because their materials being more robust, but because their heat output keep all that exposed metal parts dry, even when there is storm outside (or dry it out in just short time after being powered back ON)...

I think these problems only illustrate, then LED is really not good technology for reliable winter time outdoor decorations...
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randacnam7321
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #39 on: December 31, 2011, 12:46:38 AM » Author: randacnam7321
Hence my suggestion for using a plastic that physically adheres to the LED epoxy and wire insulation when in a molten state (or at least application of an adhesive that flows into the gap between the wire/LED envelope and the plastic covering by way of capillary action).  Then water ingress along the interface between the lead in wires and the epoxy envelope will not be an issue since the plastic encapsulation protects this area from water exposure in the first place.  There are sets made this way, but they are few and far between.
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Medved
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #40 on: December 31, 2011, 06:07:21 AM » Author: Medved
But I fear, then as the water seep inside the LED, it would seep around he boundaries between different materials as well, that is the experience.

I've never seen bond between electrical wire insulation and any other plastic (it was a kind of synthetic rubber, softened PVC, PE, having both the materials principally the same, different, virtually all combinations), that was really thoroughly fused. The plastic always tend to easily separate on the former border, what mean it won't be watertight after few movements at different temperatures (a fatigue crack is likely to develop there).

From this it look like the reason is, then the wire insulation get contaminated by the cooling water on it's surface (when cooled after extrusion; seen on 2:50), what in the future prevent it to bond to any additional material.
Maybe with special wire fabrication process (use only air cooling) it would be better, but that would be way slower, so way more expensive and require larger space on the manufacturing site.
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xmaslightguy
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #41 on: December 31, 2011, 08:31:50 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
Quote from: Medved
8-) May you post a photo? I thought "normal" installation is few 100' of bulbs, not 1000's. Then indeed, the related electricity bill might be noticeable...
Well, here such lighting is not a tradition, so I have no guess...

Quote from: xmaslightguy
I don't have any photos ready yet, but plan to work on it this weekend (they're gonna go on a somewhat hidden section of my website).
I'll PM (& anyone else who wants to see) you the link once its ready.

I've gotten some of the images put up om my website... I tried to PM you yesterday, but there is something wrong with the lighting-gallery server, PM's aren't working/I just get an error.

-------------
On the current discussion of the wires of LEDs rusting out...this problem should be taken care of (at least in the US) New UL (for 2011 I believe) rules require that the wires on LEDs not be made of metal which rusts :)
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #42 on: December 31, 2011, 09:44:24 PM » Author: Medved
On the current discussion of the wires of LEDs rusting out...this problem should be taken care of (at least in the US) New UL (for 2011 I believe) rules require that the wires on LEDs not be made of metal which rusts :)

The wiring may fulfill this requirement, but the LED's alone could not - the leads of the LED alone are made from the iron and I haven't seen any other material on the LED's. There is some reliability reason behind (I don't remember any details), but if makers would be forced to use in appropriate materials only to "not rust", the LED's reliability would become only worse...
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #43 on: December 31, 2011, 10:27:25 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
By 'wires' I meant the leads of the LEDs themselves :)

I just bought some new sets of LEDs this year (on clearance after Christmas). With the LEDs themselves (removed from the set), they are made out of a different metal than past years...with previous years, the LEDs could be picked up with a magnet, those from this year are no longer magnetic!
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Re: LED Christmas lights ARRGH!!!!! « Reply #44 on: January 01, 2012, 02:08:27 AM » Author: SeanB~1
The frame on a LED is made of metal, the big requirements being compatible with the epoxy overmould and capable of being soldered. The die is generally soldered or stuck down with conductive epoxy, and then the other terminal is done with a gold or aluminium wire bond. The cheapest material to use is steel with an electroplated tin finish, it is easy to form all the parts from a sheet by stamping, and then plate it in a bath. The best material is a special brass alloy, which is also tinned.It is quite expensive though, and work hardens rapidly, which blunts dies a lot faster than mild steel. Most likely the manufacturers have changed to an ordinary brass, soft and easy to handle, and not much more in price than steel. It will not rust, but will have a green patina in a few months after water exposure, and will corrode and crack the encapsulation of the LED.
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