Author Topic: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!!  (Read 14273 times)
Medved
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 05:28:09 PM » Author: Medved
Well, that would make sense a bit more...
Then no wonder the magnetic ballasts appeared only now: Without reaching the "A", the ballast model would risk to be forced out by the EU i***ts pretty soon, as they threaten to ban everything not reaching "A"...
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Kappa7
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 05:51:11 PM » Author: Kappa7
...and the new ballasts from Vossloh Schwabe linked some post ago are the proof that ballasts with new EEI A2 are possible to be manufactured without be too bulky/expensive (at least for lamps with high arc voltage or a series tandem of lower arc voltage lamps).

By the way they will be very reliable and durable as they have a dt really low (20-25°C) thanks to the high efficiency.
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Medved
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #32 on: January 30, 2013, 12:22:50 AM » Author: Medved
The reliability would depend on other factors than the temperature too. How was the efficiency achieved? Isn't there something prone to failures?
The temperature would give good guide only when the rest of the design is the same, so when the temperature related aging is the most dominant factor. But here the design differ a lot, I would expect some of "childhood diseases", at least in the early years of production...
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #33 on: January 30, 2013, 04:22:58 PM » Author: Kappa7
In case of the new vossloh schwabe A2 ballast they look quite the same as the normal B1-B2 version, so I don't see why the reliability should not be greater thanks to the lower self heating.
They are only bigger and heavier. For example the weight for the 36W ballasts are: old B2: 0.55kg, old B1: 0.80kg, new A2: 1.2kg.
BTW they claim a failure rate of  0.025% per 1,000 operating hours, but I don't know how it compares to normal B1-2 ballasts.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:25:28 PM by Kappa7 » Logged
Medved
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #34 on: January 31, 2013, 05:21:04 AM » Author: Medved
Well, I've seen some ad (from other maker), where the ballasts boxes contained even the electronic starter, (so they were really the complete ballasts, not only the choke), clearly with way different design.
If the design style and manufacturing technology haven't changed, there is for sure no reason for them to be less reliable...
With T5 I would be afraid, than the glowbottle starters would not be so reliable anymore, as some of the T5 tend to have larger reignition overshoot, what may falsely trigger the starters even when the lamp light normally. So that would need either special glowbottles with higher trigger voltage (and I would expect troubles with these in the cold, dark places, as they would have to have less margin for the mains voltage to trigger them), or an electronic starter. Well, maybe the series heated 4-pin thermal starters would return too... :-D
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Ash
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #35 on: January 31, 2013, 10:52:10 AM » Author: Ash
The 4 pin starters won't (you kill i think 1W just on keeping it hot, that's inefficient), but why not all that triac based 2 wire ignitor ? They worked perfectly since 1990 in the Perfect Start ballasts
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Medved
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #36 on: January 31, 2013, 11:24:35 AM » Author: Medved
The 4 pin starters won't (you kill i think 1W just on keeping it hot, that's inefficient),
It could be less, it depend on the exact design...


but why not all that triac based 2 wire ignitor ? They worked perfectly since 1990 in the Perfect Start ballasts

I don't know, what do you have in mind, as the Perfect start starters I've seen here used an auxiliary winding from the ballast.

For tubes with an arc voltage between 110 and 190V running on series LC the problem is in the way, how the starter could determine, if the lamp is lit or not.
When not lit, there is 230Vrms/210Vavg with 325V peaks in normal operation, but it could be as low as 210Vrms/190Vavg. And when lit, there is up to 190Vavg with peaks up to 400V. So the traditional voltage sense method (used by virtually all 2 pin starters) would not work - there is no gap between the maximum of lit lamp (where it should be OFF) and minimum mains voltage (where it should start the ignition sequence), so either the starter would interfere with some lamps, or it won't start at all.
So then remain only the circuit current as a value determining, if the lamp is lit or not yet. And for that you need 4 pin connection.
If you sense the current as the voltage across the ballast  auxiliary winding (like the Perfect start ballasts I have seen here do), you have no other option than build the starter into the ballast box. But then you end up with nonstandard design, so you would have to work out the reliability...
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Ash
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #37 on: January 31, 2013, 11:31:38 AM » Author: Ash
The later (1990+) Perfect Start ballasts were essentially a plain choke and electronic Programmed Start ignitor in place of the starter (capacitor-timed preheating time, ignition pulses at 50hz, give up if lamp does not strike in few seconds)
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Kappa7
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #38 on: January 31, 2013, 03:37:49 PM » Author: Kappa7
Vossloh schwabe recommend the ÖKO6 starter to be used with both T8 and T5 lamps. For 35W T5 lamps there is the ÖKO5 which is the same as the ÖKO6 but for 400V line voltage.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 04:02:03 PM by Kappa7 » Logged
Medved
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #39 on: January 31, 2013, 04:49:38 PM » Author: Medved
Well, I was talking mainly about a system supplying the higher voltage lamp (130..190V) from the 230V mains without boosting the voltage up with a transformer, but using the "constant current" regulating impedance (series LC, where the L get slightly saturated on the nominal current).
That is the most efficient arrangement for such lamps, even with regular components (so "B2" F36T8 ballast and series capacitor), you could easily feed a 80W lamp (some T5 double-circular lamp) with less than 8W total losses, so nearly reaching the new A2 with rather cheap components. The problem is then only the starting: With "manual" starter it work well, but the glowbottles, obviously, keep tripping. It somehow worked with an S10e, but it required the power to be OFF for at least 10 seconds before next turn ON, as the starter always end up in "fault" mode in this circuit, so need time to reset.
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #40 on: January 31, 2013, 05:16:40 PM » Author: Kappa7
Ok I understand. In this case like you said I think that the only reliable method is to monitor the current.
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Ash
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #41 on: February 01, 2013, 10:19:00 AM » Author: Ash
Or the voltage waveform - If the lamp is off there is sine ie continuous regions where the voltage is low (between some thresholds). If the lamp is on the voltage will be the arc voltage of the lamp for continuous peroids except quickly at when zero crossing
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #42 on: February 01, 2013, 01:13:20 PM » Author: Medved
Or the voltage waveform - If the lamp is off there is sine ie continuous regions where the voltage is low (between some thresholds). If the lamp is on the voltage will be the arc voltage of the lamp for continuous peroids except quickly at when zero crossing

That would require quite extensive signal processing. And in the starter is co power budget to do that (the maximum the electronic could draw is 1mA via >100kOhm resistor, while such processing would require fast running u-controller consuming about 15mA)...
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Ash
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #43 on: February 01, 2013, 03:50:45 PM » Author: Ash
Diac + GTO + capacitor to the rescue

At V>min charge capacitor through diac and resistor

At V>max short out capacitor with SCR

If capacitor charged to enough V (over time defined by resistor) --> steady wanted state --> ok
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Re: Magnetic Ballasts for T5 Lamps finally here!!! « Reply #44 on: February 02, 2013, 02:03:50 AM » Author: Medved
Diac + GTO + capacitor to the rescue

At V>min charge capacitor through diac and resistor

At V>max short out capacitor with SCR

If capacitor charged to enough V (over time defined by resistor) --> steady wanted state --> ok

I didn't get the arrangement you tried to describe, mainly how it is supposed to distinguish between ~180..190V rectangular from 200Vrms (so the "rectified-average" would be the same 180V) sine wave with components with 10..15% tolerance?
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