Author Topic: Typical Halides  (Read 2326 times)
wattMaster
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


WWW
Typical Halides « on: August 18, 2016, 08:55:00 PM » Author: wattMaster
What are the typical Halide salts used in Metal Halide lamps?
I want a list for the variety of MH lamp, and the color temperature.
I'm interested in the Pulse Start 3000K 400 Watt QMH because the Halides look yellow.
Logged

SLS! (Stop LED Streetlights!)

dor123
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Other loves are computers, office equipment, A/Cs


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #1 on: August 19, 2016, 02:51:14 AM » Author: dor123
In most MH lamps at North American, there is Na-Sc. In the European Philips HPI lamps, there is In-Tl-Na. In Osram HQI/D there is Dy-Tl-Cs and in the current version, Dy-Ho-Tm-Tl-Cs. CMH lamps have various rare-earths halides, thallium and sodium. Cosmopolis MH lamp uses Ce-Tl-Na I think. US Philips retrowhite also use cerium, but I don't know the rest halides.
Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

wattMaster
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 12:35:42 PM » Author: wattMaster
In most MH lamps at North American, there is Na-Sc. In the European Philips HPI lamps, there is In-Tl-Na. In Osram HQI/D there is Dy-Tl-Cs and in the current version, Dy-Ho-Tm-Tl-Cs. CMH lamps have various rare-earths halides, thallium and sodium. Cosmopolis MH lamp uses Ce-Tl-Na I think. US Philips retrowhite also use cerium, but I don't know the rest halides.
Why do different places use different halides?
Logged

SLS! (Stop LED Streetlights!)

Ash
Member
*****
Offline

View Posts
View Gallery


Re: Typical Halides « Reply #3 on: August 20, 2016, 01:38:33 PM » Author: Ash
Historically, company A developed type A in the US, company B developed prt B in Europe, and each type succeeded on the market in its own country. Not related to any electrical reasons or so
Logged
wattMaster
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #4 on: August 20, 2016, 01:40:52 PM » Author: wattMaster
Historically, company A developed type A in the US, company B developed prt B in Europe, and each type succeeded on the market in its own country. Not related to any electrical reasons or so
Seems normal. What Halides are creamy yellow colored?
Logged

SLS! (Stop LED Streetlights!)

Medved
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Re: Typical Halides « Reply #5 on: August 21, 2016, 10:09:14 AM » Author: Medved
Historically, company A developed type A in the US, company B developed prt B in Europe, and each type succeeded on the market in its own country. Not related to any electrical reasons or so
Seems normal. What Halides are creamy yellow colored?

Actually there is one difference coming from the mains voltage (although a historical one).
It all started with MV's.
In Europe they were already reasonably efficient even when designed for the most efficient, cheapest and lightest ballast architecture of the time: A series reactor ballast.
However the US 120V was too low to allow any reasonably efficient lamp design, the ballast had to feature a voltage boosting capability, so the autotransformer and finally the CWA was born. And the OCV was about the same as the European mains, so about 220 till 240V.
Then move some decades later: The MH's were just an evolution of the at that time common MV, so it used very similar design. Just the fil was altered to add some components to reach better efficacy and color, even without the phosphor (so to allow to work also with a high efficiency of focused optics). So the Na-Sc chemistry was born.
But very early come a problem: With the typical 220..240V OCV there were too many lamps failed to start.
In the US the fix was easy: The common CWA ballast were just easily redesigned to an OCV around 300V. It didn't break the compatibility with the MV lamps, so it became a standard.
But in Europe that was a problem: A series reactor just can not deliver any other OCV than the supply it gets on its inputs. So first companies were trying different fill chemistries, but it all ended up with a need for something, that will boost the voltage for the start, so an ignitor.
Plus the 220..240V was rather low to keep the arc stable (the CWA has double the OCV available for current zero cross reignition, the series reactor has again just the mains voltage for that), so it would need a lower arc voltage designs, that means lower real power and greater stress for the existing ballasts.
And when an ignitor was a necessity anyway, it means the MV's can not be used anymore in these fixtures (they were not rated for the higher voltage the ignitor is capable to deliver).
And if the MV's won't be usable with the ignitor anyway and the ignitor was necessary anyway too, it was no deal to make the ignitor voltage way higher, going even into HV range and get rid of the auxiliary electrodes and so simplify the arctube design within the lamp.
And because of the simpler and more compact arctube construction being possible, it allows more even thermal distribution designs, opens the gate for way broader range of fill materials.
So a pulse start MH was born.
But the need for the igniktor was in fact a show stopper for the US market, when about similar performance was possible from the basic NaSc fill designs with starting probes and on the CWA ballasts.
And we have different design and chemistries between 120V and 230V markets...
Logged

No more selfballasted c***

dor123
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Other loves are computers, office equipment, A/Cs


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #6 on: August 21, 2016, 11:03:14 AM » Author: dor123
James Hooker said in the past, that the reason why Na-Sc wasn't so popular outside North America, is because this chemistry is only stable with CWA ballasts, since it is very sensitive to mains voltage variations, and CWA ballast are immune to mains voltage variation, producing a constant OCV. Here we use chokes, so any variation in the mains voltage, cause a change in color, so Na-Sc suffers from color variation on simple chokes. thats why Philips continued to develop GE's original tri-salt chemistry.
Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

RCM442
Administrator
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

rcm442 UC1Q-wYhi9O-1q4ugOaOZ9dA rcm442
WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #7 on: August 21, 2016, 02:05:35 PM » Author: RCM442
Historically, company A developed type A in the US, company B developed prt B in Europe, and each type succeeded on the market in its own country. Not related to any electrical reasons or so
Seems normal. What Halides are creamy yellow colored?
Dysprosium iodide
Logged

LEDs need to stop taking over everything
Administrator #4
Need help with something on the site? Let me know!

Medved
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Re: Typical Halides « Reply #8 on: August 21, 2016, 04:44:29 PM » Author: Medved
James Hooker said in the past, that the reason why Na-Sc wasn't so popular outside North America, is because this chemistry is only stable with CWA ballasts, since it is very sensitive to mains voltage variations, and CWA ballast are immune to mains voltage variation, producing a constant OCV. Here we use chokes, so any variation in the mains voltage, cause a change in color, so Na-Sc suffers from color variation on simple chokes. thats why Philips continued to develop GE's original tri-salt chemistry.

The color variation with supplied power was a problem for all chemistries. Over the time it has improved and solved only just by the newest unsatorated vapor designs and/or the use of really constant power output electronic ballasts.

The electrical stability of the arc is quite dependent how well the arc restrikes after the zero current cross, so how much voltage margin the ballast provides. With MV the auxiliary probe is of quite a great help there. But once it is deactivated (by the thermal switch), this aid is gone, so you really need higher voltage. And the CWA configuration (effectively an series LC operated below resonance) easily doubles the ballast OCV for the reignition, the plain series inductance provides just the mains voltage. Hence the worse arc stability with just the NaSc. and I would guess this arc stability will influence the power, color and even flicker as well.

The CWA may supress the mains variation, but with a saturated vapor lamp concept (which were all MH's) it means way higher sensitivity to lamp thermal balance tolerances.
Plus the CWA ballast may suppress the mains variation, but it has higher sensitivity for the ballast tolerances alone (given the fact there is a subtraction in the impedance equations). Then the crest factor is rather high and quite a significantly subject to manufacturing process variation.
So I don't think that would be of that great help. In most installations where the lighting circuit are separated from the commercial energy distribution, the voltage uses to be within a percent or so around the typical level at the given place. Of course, the long wiring does drop quite some voltage, but because the lighting is a constant load, that drop does not change either. But that is experience from the environment here, I know in many places with individual photocells the lighting is just "stealing" the power from the commercial distribution wiring, so it is subject of the voltage fluctuation imposed by the varying loads and there the mains voltage robustness may be quite usable. But in Europe I do not know about any other country than UK, where the lighting does not use separate wiring (because of the group control scheme).
Logged

No more selfballasted c***

wattMaster
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #9 on: August 21, 2016, 06:33:52 PM » Author: wattMaster
Halides are way more complicated than I thought! :o
Logged

SLS! (Stop LED Streetlights!)

wattMaster
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #10 on: August 31, 2016, 10:51:19 PM » Author: wattMaster
Seems normal. What Halides are creamy yellow colored?
Dysprosium iodide
What about Dysprosium Bromide?
Logged

SLS! (Stop LED Streetlights!)

BlueHalide
Member
*****
Offline

View Posts
View Gallery

Re: Typical Halides « Reply #11 on: September 01, 2016, 12:15:37 AM » Author: BlueHalide
Youre not going to find any Dysprosium in USA 4000K or 3000K lamps, its all Sodium-Scandium, all Na-Sc lamps exhibit the same yellow colored halide deposits in the arctube. The few Dysprosium based european lamps I have also contain similar yellow deposits, so going by the color of the halide pool in the arctube wont distinguish between chemistries. But any off the shelf hardware store MH lamp here in the US will be Na-Sc with the exception of the 70w and 100w Sylvania 3000K metalarc with includes Lithium to boost the reds
Logged
dor123
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Other loves are computers, office equipment, A/Cs


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #12 on: September 01, 2016, 08:35:46 AM » Author: dor123
My SLI HSI-TD 70W/D, have a yellowish tinge, and its based on rare-earths.
Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

wattMaster
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


WWW
Re: Typical Halides « Reply #13 on: September 01, 2016, 12:12:45 PM » Author: wattMaster
Well, what halides are found in 3000K and 10000K PSMH lamps?
Logged

SLS! (Stop LED Streetlights!)

Print 
© 2005-2024 Lighting-Gallery.net | SMF 2.0.19 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | Terms and Policies