When i was kid in the early 00's i used this as light in my room for a while :

http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2179&pos=16&pid=58179

Not a nightlight, not even close, but nice light

I was thinking of a standard plug in night light, but I think a high K 360 degree white 5mm LED would be enough.
I have an idea, how about a bucket light themed LED night light?

Would be nice gadget

What makes me think of your "are bucket lights industrial" discussion. I can so imagine somebody wanting this gadget as a toy but at the same time disliking the real thing

Would be nice gadget

What makes me think of your "are bucket lights industrial" discussion. I can so imagine somebody wanting this gadget as a toy but at the same time disliking the real thing

Maybe to make it more authentic, we would have an array of green and blue LEDs, but not at a high current to preserve life.

This could do, if you manage to blend the colors well so there arent visible dots of either color inside

And as it is a nightlight, especially avoid the effects of Blue light on Melatonin (sleep related hormon), so definitely keep the current low. Also, put in there decent smoothing capacitor so the thing won't flicker at 60 or 120 Hz

This could do, if you manage to blend the colors well so there arent visible dots of either color inside

And as it is a nightlight, especially avoid the effects of Blue light on Melatonin (sleep related hormon), so definitely keep the current low. Also, put in there decent smoothing capacitor so the thing won't flicker at 60 or 120 Hz

I would run this white LED at maybe 2 mA, and have a real switch mode constant current power supply, not those dangerous capacitive/capacitor droppers.

Then why ban it?

The "official" reason (let stick with that for a moment) is the low real life efficacy.
Part of it is, it is indeed the lowest efficient HID for general lighting.
But that alone would not be that bad, unless the "Why to fix it when it still lights" mentality keeping way overaged and so dimmed out bulbs in service combines with the rather unique reliability of the MV technology: There are very few cases, when the MV really stops working, so the virtually only reason for a limited lifetime is the lumen depression and so consequent loss of efficacy. The life rating is then not limited to the 50% failures as with the incandescents, but to a point, where usibg a lower power lamp and replacing it more frequently would become cheaper light than feeding the higher power to the older lamp. That works well, if there are in place relamping schemes, that regularly replace all lamps for the new ones. But the lumen loss happens just gradually, so normally people do not see that happening and when they see a bucket truck replacing the bulb, they just become questioning "why they toss away a still working lamp?". But in many places the relamping happens just "when it fails", so yield the many dim lights around. The fact people are still happy means nothing else than the original installation was way oversized in terms of the installed output, so power, while half or even 1/3 would have been enough for the task.

With other technologies, the lamp aging usually ends up with either too frequent scary explosion, or with the lamp annoyingly cycling. These aspects then make sure, the lamps are replaced way earlier, before the light output really deteriorates so much. So hence the real life efficacy is way higher than the MV's.

But the real motivation behind the bans is, the costs have fallen so deep, the lamp making companies do not make much money anymore on the MV's, so they did not want to make them. But for marketing reasons, a huge company can not afford to not support ANY whim of their customers, so they did make the MV's (and mainly incandescents) long past their real economic life (I mean a production life, so when it is financially viable to continue to make such product). Or at least not to be the one quitting that business first. And the best remain as the last one, so be able to rise the prices.
Then the "Eco" craziness hit, it was grabbed as a chance to get away: They have lobbied to legally ban the production, so such ban would be the excellent "excuse", why to stop that manufacture. And be sure, no one else would remain when the prices eventually go back...

Quote from: wattMaster on August 20, 2016, 03:02:51 PM

Then why ban it?

The "official" reason (let stick with that for a moment) is the low real life efficacy.
Part of it is, it is indeed the lowest efficient HID for general lighting.
But that alone would not be that bad, unless the "Why to fix it when it still lights" mentality keeping way overaged and so dimmed out bulbs in service combines with the rather unique reliability of the MV technology: There are very few cases, when the MV really stops working, so the virtually only reason for a limited lifetime is the lumen depression and so consequent loss of efficacy. The life rating is then not limited to the 50% failures as with the incandescents, but to a point, where usibg a lower power lamp and replacing it more frequently would become cheaper light than feeding the higher power to the older lamp. That works well, if there are in place relamping schemes, that regularly replace all lamps for the new ones. But the lumen loss happens just gradually, so normally people do not see that happening and when they see a bucket truck replacing the bulb, they just become questioning "why they toss away a still working lamp?". But in many places the relamping happens just "when it fails", so yield the many dim lights around. The fact people are still happy means nothing else than the original installation was way oversized in terms of the installed output, so power, while half or even 1/3 would have been enough for the task.

With other technologies, the lamp aging usually ends up with either too frequent scary explosion, or with the lamp annoyingly cycling. These aspects then make sure, the lamps are replaced way earlier, before the light output really deteriorates so much. So hence the real life efficacy is way higher than the MV's.

But the real motivation behind the bans is, the costs have fallen so deep, the lamp making companies do not make much money anymore on the MV's, so they did not want to make them. But for marketing reasons, a huge company can not afford to not support ANY whim of their customers, so they did make the MV's (and mainly incandescents) long past their real economic life (I mean a production life, so when it is financially viable to continue to make such product). Or at least not to be the one quitting that business first. And the best remain as the last one, so be able to rise the prices.
Then the "Eco" craziness hit, it was grabbed as a chance to get away: They have lobbied to legally ban the production, so such ban would be the excellent "excuse", why to stop that manufacture. And be sure, no one else would remain when the prices eventually go back...

But who knows what happens if someone decides to start manufacturing MV things again...

But who knows what happens if someone decides to start manufacturing MV things again...

The point of the ban lobbying is, once it becomes illegal, he just can not. And no one will ever invest into a machinery to make something that is illegal to make. Well, unless we are talking about profits like with the illegal drug "business", but I doubt the MV market will ever go there (it would mean a single lamp cost on the black market way above $100)

I'm convinced  it would be just a question of time, when the incandescent, as well as the MV's business would die naturally just because of too low demand. The bans just have eliminated the stage of the incandescents and MV's to be just imported from China or so (as it the case now in the US, where the MV's are still legal). But even there the MV business is just dying and makers are just dropping it (they have stopped the production lng time ago, now they just source some lamps from who-knows-where just to keep listing them)...

Quote from: wattMaster on August 21, 2016, 04:00:04 PM

But who knows what happens if someone decides to start manufacturing MV things again...

The point of the ban lobbying is, once it becomes illegal, he just can not. And no one will ever invest into a machinery to make something that is illegal to make. Well, unless we are talking about profits like with the illegal drug "business", but I doubt the MV market will ever go there (it would mean a single lamp cost on the black market way above $100)

I'm convinced  it would be just a question of time, when the incandescent, as well as the MV's business would die naturally just because of too low demand. The bans just have eliminated the stage of the incandescents and MV's to be just imported from China or so (as it the case now in the US, where the MV's are still legal). But even there the MV business is just dying and makers are just dropping it (they have stopped the production lng time ago, now they just source some lamps from who-knows-where just to keep listing them)...

Well, with illegal drugs, you know that you're not supposed to do it, or the police will catch you, and that people know about it, so they would report you.
But with lighting like MV, it's not like the police will find and report you, they may not even know that MV is "banned". And most people wouldn't report you because they likey do not know that MV is "banned". And nobody knows what punishments there are for manufacturing MV fixtures and ballasts. I have never heard of a case like this happening.

The LPS lamps are the same "undesired" lamps, but they are not being banned, as there is no justifiable excuse on the lamps (they are the highest efficacy, clear of any harmfull materials), so they only banned its use for road lighting, but nothing prevent manufacture and sale of the lamps for security lighting, which remains their other perfect application

The manufacturers stopped making them (Osram started sourcing from Philips, now Philips drop the different wattages one by one) and everybody seems fine with that. Yet less than 10 years ago new installations in UK were still bing done with LPS by choice, and they way they build lanterns over there (Thorn Beta 5s) they have some 40+ years life remaining in them

Finally, there is the situation here :

We use the European spec lamps

Many years before, in the 90s, our market for Mercury lamp conncentrated around only 2 wattages : 125W and 250W. The 80W and 400W fell out of use somehow by themselfes to the point that they stopped selling them for years now (there were some cases of 125W lamp used on 80W gear or 70W SON I lamp used on 80W gear, which appear to work fair enough)

The 250W became rare too, mostly losing its place to MH in industry highbays and to HPS in area lighting. So while still available and used, its really small quantities

The 125 remains widely used, mostly for footpaths/low brightness other outdoor lighting, which is the perfect use for Mercury and specifically for this wattage (though i'd like to see the 80W there too)

Our lamp bans dont ban Mercury lamps, the Mercury lamps ar still being sold (mostly Osram/Philips China, occasionlly Yaming, and more rarely Chinese no names). But we simply keep getting worse and worse quality lamps all the time. So when a Mercury installation can perform very well, it just can't with those lamps

The LPS lamps are the same "undesired" lamps, but they are not being banned, as there is no justifiable excuse on the lamps (they are the highest efficacy, clear of any harmfull materials), so they only banned its use for road lighting, but nothing prevent manufacture and sale of the lamps for security lighting, which remains their other perfect application

The manufacturers stopped making them (Osram started sourcing from Philips, now Philips drop the different wattages one by one) and everybody seems fine with that. Yet less than 10 years ago new installations in UK were still bing done with LPS by choice, and they way they build lanterns over there (Thorn Beta 5s) they have some 40+ years life remaining in them

Finally, there is the situation here :

We use the European spec lamps

Many years before, in the 90s, our market for Mercury lamp conncentrated around only 2 wattages : 125W and 250W. The 80W and 400W fell out of use somehow by themselfes to the point that they stopped selling them for years now (there were some cases of 125W lamp used on 80W gear or 70W SON I lamp used on 80W gear, which appear to work fair enough)

The 250W became rare too, mostly losing its place to MH in industry highbays and to HPS in area lighting. So while still available and used, its really small quantities

The 125 remains widely used, mostly for footpaths/low brightness other outdoor lighting, which is the perfect use for Mercury and specifically for this wattage (though i'd like to see the 80W there too)

Our lamp bans dont ban Mercury lamps, the Mercury lamps ar still being sold (mostly Osram/Philips China, occasionlly Yaming, and more rarely Chinese no names). But we simply keep getting worse and worse quality lamps all the time. So when a Mercury installation can perform very well, it just can't with those lamps

What If someone made such low quality MV fixtures and ballasts that nobody paid attention to them?
And what if someone catches you making MV things? Is it just some bad talk, or enough to bankrupt your company?
And who's Yaming?
250 Watts is still common here, but not as much as 175 Watts. Was 175W ever popular in Israel?

If something is banned, then it is banned no matter qhat the quaity. It must be somehow exempt to be unbanned, for example : Pulse start Mercury, Rough service Incandescent

In reality, some products just get smuggled in. Here Incandescent is allowed up to 60W now (the normal, high efficacy Incandescent). Yet, Incandescents in all wattages are occasionally smuggled in. The smuggled ones are the low quality ones that dont last long, explode at EOL, and have NO data on the package at all except Wattage. No Lm V Hours Approvals Anything. I dont think this is directly related to being smuggled, but simply to being cheaper to buy from the factory, as those who smuggle them dont give any dam about quality or safety but do give about their own profits

Here MV is allowed, so no problem doing MV. If doing 100W Incandescents, its probably some big fine, pretty sure bigger than all the income you had from the business, and possibly an explicit order to close the business. Could be some record too but i dont think it is a criminal offense

Yaming is the biggest manufacturer of lamps in China, making also Osram/Philips etched lamps for Osram and Philips. Lamps are not the worst you can find but absolute crap compared to the older European made real Osram and Philips ones

We use the European lamps that go like :

50W
80W
125W
250W
400W
700W
1000W
2000W

Out of them i ever seen here only 80..400. I guess 1000 were used in the past too. Today we only have 125 (the only common wattage) and very few 250

What I'm really asking now is what happens if someone decides to start production of MV again, but I know it's "banned".
Will people really pay much attention?

What I'm really asking now is what happens if someone decides to start production of MV again, but I know it's "banned".
Will people really pay much attention?

Well,  who will pay an attention is the regulatory body. And it may result into rather huge fines (in the US it is quite common in similar cases for the court to just calculate all the profit you make on it, double that figure and apply that as the fine; the main aim of this is to really deter anyone from violating the rules intentionally to make the main profit on it, but still do not "kill" a business for a minor lapse).