Author Topic: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp?  (Read 3836 times)
Flurofan96
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Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « on: August 14, 2018, 05:43:06 PM » Author: Flurofan96
Hey everyone FF96 here  8) ;)

This may sound like the wildest dream of the realms of the lighting world. Was there ever a production and sale of a Self Ballasted HPS lamp (SBHPS/SBSON) ? Because if there was then thats so awesome because you could easily retrofit a high wattage incandescent fixture/floodlight for some lovely orange discharge light instead of a SBMV  ;D :D

I am not tipsy or anything. Its just what was going on in the back of my mind. Also in relation I remember seeing on ebay a tubular MH lamp with a halogen filament in its linear quartz envelope and I am quite sure that was a self ballasted MH lamp. Surely the HID market didn't leave the self ballasting filament idea confined to the MV lamp only

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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #1 on: August 14, 2018, 06:06:45 PM » Author: Rommie
An interesting concept, never seen or heard of one though.
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 06:18:54 PM » Author: Flurofan96
You see the whole thing about this particular thought/idea, Ria  :)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PREMIUM-QUALITY-SELF-BALLASTED-METAL-HALIDE-LAMP-400W-E40-5000K-HYDROPONICS/282148014398?epid=510512521&hash=item41b155093e%3Ag%3Ac2UAAOSwPcVVuSIJ&_sacat=0&_nkw=self+ballasted+metal+halide+lamp&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

This is the ebay link to the so called self ballasted Metal Halide lamp which is for hydroponics application. Use the zoom feature to get a closer look of the quartz halogen linear tube which is concealed by the MH arc tube. Now I have confirmed the SBMH exists
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #3 on: August 14, 2018, 06:36:16 PM » Author: Rommie
Ok, but you asked about HPS  :P

I do remember seeing the MH ones on eBay, now you come to mention it, but never seen the HPS variety. Think I'll get myself one of these MH ones, they look interesting and the price seems reasonable, thanks for the link..!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 06:41:52 PM by MissRiaElaine » Logged

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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #4 on: August 14, 2018, 07:49:31 PM » Author: AngryHorse
Philips also made one for the US market, here. I'd also question whether those ebay ones ARE actually halide lamps?, as you know, halide lamps need to be started from an ignitor, how do you ignite a halide tube from an internal halogen lamp, directly off the mains?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 08:18:45 PM by AngryHorse » Logged

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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 01:43:58 AM » Author: dor123
You see the whole thing about this particular thought/idea, Ria  :)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PREMIUM-QUALITY-SELF-BALLASTED-METAL-HALIDE-LAMP-400W-E40-5000K-HYDROPONICS/282148014398?epid=510512521&hash=item41b155093e%3Ag%3Ac2UAAOSwPcVVuSIJ&_sacat=0&_nkw=self+ballasted+metal+halide+lamp&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313

This is the ebay link to the so called self ballasted Metal Halide lamp which is for hydroponics application. Use the zoom feature to get a closer look of the quartz halogen linear tube which is concealed by the MH arc tube. Now I have confirmed the SBMH exists

This is a clear tubular self-ballasted mercury lamp with a halogen lamp instead of a tungsten filament. Some members here, have this lamp.
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 09:35:23 AM » Author: Flurofan96
Dor123 and Angryhorse I believe what you both are saying is correct that in fact it is basically a modern version of a tubular SBMV!!! and uncoated as well!! Because there is one obvious thing if you look at it using the zoom feature on ebay is that the arc tube does not have the electrode insulation paint and the whole structure of the tube itself looks typical quartz MV arctube as the glass thickness is designed for the pressure of MV lamps.

So the reason why SBMH and SBSON were not developed such for the market is the ignitor issue
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2018, 10:22:59 AM » Author: AngryHorse
Spot on, you couldn't even use a snap start, or glow bottle, as you still need a ballast for inductive collapse, there's only mercury lamps, with their relatively low pressure to be able to start on straight mains ;)
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #8 on: August 15, 2018, 10:32:12 AM » Author: funkybulb
GE did invented SBMH lamp call the Halarc
it basically a electronic ballast  running a MH lamp
in Tshape package.  problem was it was expensive
and never really took off.  

there could never be a incandescent ballast HPS
it due to high reignition peaks  on the arc tube
at zero crossing of A/c cycles
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:37:00 AM by funkybulb » Logged

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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 11:53:34 AM » Author: Rommie
This is a clear tubular self-ballasted mercury lamp with a halogen lamp instead of a tungsten filament. Some members here, have this lamp.
Indeed, I surmised that on a closeup inspection of the photo. I'll probably get one or two though, they're still interesting lamps.
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #10 on: August 15, 2018, 12:38:00 PM » Author: Mandolin Girl
Indeed, I surmised that on a closeup inspection of the photo. I'll probably get one or two though, they're still interesting lamps.
Yes, we need to partake of some lamp retail therapy, as one of the Cuddly Tribe has gone missing.  :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #11 on: August 15, 2018, 12:46:13 PM » Author: Rommie
Yes, we need to partake of some lamp retail therapy, as one of the Cuddly Tribe has gone missing.  :'( :'( :'( :'(
That always helps  ;D

I've also sent a message to the seller, pointing out that they're not MH lamps, hopefully he'll change the description.
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #12 on: August 15, 2018, 07:24:02 PM » Author: Flurofan96
Basically despite its not a SBMH I would still want to get it because its a tubular clear shaped MV lamp and I envyed the lot whoever managed to acquire one  :D

So then sums it up that the only incandescent ballasted HID lamp is the SBMV and the bulky GE T shaped SBMH using built in electronic ballast&ignitor

Would be dead awesome if it was possible to achieve a production of a SBSON and SBMH but oh well better start obtaining ballasts and E40 sockets
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #13 on: August 16, 2018, 05:50:40 AM » Author: Medved
The main reason is both MH, as well as HPS do not have any auxiliary probe to lower the reignition voltage (each time the current crosses zero, the arc loses its supply so extinguishes, so for the next halfwave it has to be reignited again).
The normal inductive ballasts do expose the discharge to full OCV immediately after the zero cross (because of the phase shift, the current zero cross is at the moment when there is nearly full peak voltage), so first the arc was not extinct for that long, so there are still plenty of ions and free electrons in the atmosphere (after losing the electrical feed, ions recombine with free electrons or the opposite ions back to the neutral atoms, but it takes some time), so there is enough baseline ionization for the reignition (it needs to populate them back). Plus the full available voltage means the avalanche ionization gets pretty fast, so the full fat arc is reestablished pretty quickly.
With resistive load the current disappears at the moment the mains voltage drops to the arc equilibrium voltage (the arc voltage, the voltage which makes the ionization just the same rate as is the recombination decay of the ions, so the ionization level is maintained). Then the first next moment when the arc could be reestablished is, when the voltage reaches that level again the next half cycle. Between these points the ionization levels drops so much, the arc wont be restored again.
In the MV is still the starting probe with the resistor, which forms another discharge path. This path is very short, so has its equilibrium voltage very low, so maintains the discharge there quite far after the main arc ges out and restrikes way earlier than the voltage becomes sufficient for the next half cycle. This auxiliary discharge generates both a clioud of free electrons and ions, as well as an UV rays liberating electrons from any metal structure within the arc tube, so there are enough free charge carriers already at the moment when the mains voltage reaches the level when the ionization gets build up again.
So the presence of the auxiliary probe s the essential detail, which ensures rather smooth reignition of the MV arctube after each zero cross, so makes the arc stable even with the resistive ballast.
With MH the auxiliary probe has to be deenergized because of the corrosion problems, in HPS is no such probe at all, so these lamps are missing that detail essential to keep the arc alive even with a resistor as ballast.

The HALARC goes around this problem with some other way:
The arctube is designedas DC and fed via a rectifier. The diode rectifier has one good side effect: It allows combination of multiple current sources, so the load can take power from main or a kind of backup source just by using two diodes.
In the HALARC the main source is the main current part provided from the mains via the resistive (incandescent filament) ballast, but a second low current, but filtered DC sourceis wired as "the backup" to keep a small current flowing when the main mains path can not deliver anything. This small current source then maintains the discharge during the gap around the main current zero cross, so allows the thing to operate using just the incandescent filament (it is in the outer bulb of the lamp) as the main principal ballast. The "electronic" there is just the main rectifier in the form of 4 diodes, the auxiliary supply in the form of few capacitors and diodes (forming a voltage multiplier) plus a high ohmic resistor limitting the current so the capacitor charge is able to cover the whole time the mains voltage is too low. Plus the last part is the ignitor pulser for the first cold ignition (where it needs still a bit higher voltage).

The modern selfballasted HIDs use rather standard (from todays perspective) electronic ballast integrated in a common assembly with the arctube to a compact lamp assembly, just in a similar way as CFLs are made.
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Re: Was there ever a SBHPS or SBSON (self ballasted HPS) lamp? « Reply #14 on: August 16, 2018, 05:22:05 PM » Author: Medved
Can we surmise from this that running fluorescent lamps on resistive ballasts may be harder on the lamp electrodes due to what you describe above?

Yes, it is. The plus side, the low pressure in fluorescents means there are large distance between particles, so it takes way longer time for the ions to meet the opposite polarity, so their decay is way slower in time.
That means the fluorescents are still capable to operate on resistors even without auxiliary electrodes (see this post for some experiments...)/
But still the higher reignition peaks do mean temporarily higher speed of ions hitting the elec trodes, so wearing them off a bit faster. But more important will be, the more difficult reignition means they need the cathode health a bit better, so it could happen a bit faster whem the lamps reach that wear level.
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