Author Topic: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps  (Read 311 times)
108CAM
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Diehard MV, HPS, SOX & Preheat Fluorescent Fanatic


UCG6Xojn8dNgDuN9J7_Gnj8w
Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « on: July 30, 2022, 04:31:59 AM » Author: 108CAM
Been trying to figure this out ever since I got into lighting. Metal Halide lamps seem to come in many variations but the difference between Probe Start & Pulse Start is my biggest unanswered question.   
Logged

Fluro starter chimes combined with a 50hz ballast hum and blinking tubes is music to my ears.

Rest in Peace Electronic Lamp Manufacturers of Australia
1925-2002

Bring back the AJF Zodiacs!

Total incidents since joining LG: 12
Lamps accidently broken or smashed: 10
Ballast explosions/burnouts: 2

dor123
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery
Other loves are computers, office equipment, A/Cs


WWW
Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #1 on: July 30, 2022, 04:53:02 AM » Author: dor123
Probe-start MH lamps have a starting electrode, similar to mercury lamps, and don't requires an ignitor.
Pulse-start MH lamps don't have a starting electrodes, and requires an ignitor to start, similar to HPS lamps.
Logged

I"m don't speak English well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the international date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

I lives in Israel, which is a 220-240V, 50hz country.

funkybulb
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #2 on: July 30, 2022, 05:04:24 AM » Author: funkybulb
 That correct the MH lamp is easy to spot if lamps have starting resistor and third starting electrode.   While pulse start dont have them and a wire on each end of arc tube
Logged

No LED gadgets, spins too slowly.  Gotta  love preheat and MV. let the lights keep my meter spinning.

Max
Member
***
Offline

View Posts
View Gallery


Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #3 on: July 30, 2022, 05:50:40 AM » Author: Max
Probe-start MH lamps have a starting electrode, similar to mercury lamps, and don't requires an ignitor.
Pulse-start MH lamps don't have a starting electrodes, and requires an ignitor to start, similar to HPS lamps.

That's not as clear cut as that. Some pulse-start MH lamps intended for a use in a circuit provided with an ignitor do have an ignition probe to facilitate starting. That's the case of older neutral-white Tungsram HgMIF 400W, of some Sylvania's HSI lamps, and of some Venture lamps (various types). So, in general all MH lamps without auxiliary electrode are pulse-start for sure and require an ignitor, while lamps with a starting probe may or may not require an ignitor.
Logged
WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Member
*****
Online

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

HID, LPS, and preheat fluorescents forever!!!!!!


Worldwide HIDCollectorUSA
Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #4 on: July 30, 2022, 01:40:41 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
In some cases, probe start metal halide lamps can start reliably without an ignitor if the ballast’s OCV is high enough. However, if the ballast’s OCV is too low, an ignitor would be needed to start a probe start metal halide lamp reliably, but would need to use a low voltage ignitor like 750v-1000v since higher voltage ignitors like 3kV or 5kV ignitors would destroy a probe start metal halide lamp’s starting probe and/or resistor when the lamp undergoes hot restrike.
Logged

Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

Max
Member
***
Offline

View Posts
View Gallery


Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #5 on: July 30, 2022, 02:13:51 PM » Author: Max
That's incorrect (are you and dor123 related?). The bimetal switch that is found in all MH lamps built with an ignition probe prevents this risk of arcing outside the burner while it is still hot.
Logged
WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Member
*****
Online

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

HID, LPS, and preheat fluorescents forever!!!!!!


Worldwide HIDCollectorUSA
Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #6 on: July 30, 2022, 02:16:39 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Never knew that the bimetal switch would prevent arcing outside of the arc tube while the lamp was hot. I was just sharing that in Europe, probe start metal halide lamps are often used with mercury vapor ballasts and 750v-1000v 2 wire parallel ignitors while in North America, probe start metal halide lamps are often used with dedicated high OCV autotransformer ballasts to allow for reliable starting without an ignitor whatsoever at all. However, I often see that many people on LG often advise against using a high voltage ignitor to start probe start metal halide lamps. I wonder why that is.

 I am not trying to be ignorant of any information that is being presented to me. However, I do appreciate it whenever I learn something new.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 02:24:12 PM by WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA » Logged

Desire to collect various light bulbs (especially HID), control gear, and fixtures from around the world.

DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

joseph_125
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


GoL
Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #7 on: July 30, 2022, 03:48:57 PM » Author: joseph_125
I believe the bi-metal switch is the reason why probe start lamps usually have a longer restike time compared to pulse start lamps. Probe start lamps can't start until both the arctube has cooled sufficiently to strike an arc and enough for the bi-metal switch to close. Pulse start lamps merely have to cool enough for the ignitor to strike an arc.

Most sites I've looked seem to quote the probe start restike time between 10-20 minutes. With the quote pulse start restike time around half that.
Logged
Medved
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery

Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #8 on: August 01, 2022, 12:38:16 AM » Author: Medved
That's incorrect (are you and dor123 related?). The bimetal switch that is found in all MH lamps built with an ignition probe prevents this risk of arcing outside the burner while it is still hot.

The explanation I have seen so far was, the high electrical field between the probe and main electrode during operation would trigger electrolztic decomposition of the sodium salt and so bring the reactive sodium ions into contact with the quartz (more over around the rather fragile seal area). The bimetal switch shorting the auxilary to the main probe potential eliminates this field.

If the breakdown in the outer were an issue, you could not operate MV lamps on the higher OCV MH ballast (in the US), such arcing would kill the MV's within a short time, should it be really a problem.


And for the "pulse start" term it is meant the lamp need a HV (so above 1kV pulse) ignitor. The ignitors for probe start lamps on 230V mains series reactors are just 750V, so low voltage.
But it is true mainly at high power ratings (with their rather low buffer gas cold pressure) the breakdown voltage becomes quite low (with only small "push" in the form of finetuning the gas composition), so the 750V ignitor is able to reliably ignite lamps even without the starting probe.
Logged

No more selfballasted c***

Max
Member
***
Offline

View Posts
View Gallery


Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #9 on: August 02, 2022, 03:05:04 AM » Author: Max
The explanation I have seen so far was, the high electrical field between the probe and main electrode during operation would trigger electrolztic decomposition of the sodium salt and so bring the reactive sodium ions into contact with the quartz (more over around the rather fragile seal area). The bimetal switch shorting the auxilary to the main probe potential eliminates this field.
True, and this also eliminates the risk of arcing between the two closely spaced leads outside the burner when an ignitor is used.

If the breakdown in the outer were an issue, you could not operate MV lamps on the higher OCV MH ballast (in the US), such arcing would kill the MV's within a short time, should it be really a problem.
Using mercury lamps on standard US MH autotransformer ballasts (without ignitor) doesn't result in any risk of external arcing simply because the maximum OCV of those ballasts do not exceed 475 V. But try to restart a hot mercury lamp on a US "PSMH", a European MH, or a HPS control gear, that's when you'll get in serious trouble.

And for the "pulse start" term it is meant the lamp need a HV (so above 1kV pulse) ignitor. The ignitors for probe start lamps on 230V mains series reactors are just 750V, so low voltage.
MH lamps provided with an auxiliary electrode and intended for a use on HPS control gears (Sylvania's several HSI-Txx models, some Venture lamps) could be classified as being "probe start" (since plasma is initiated between the probe and its adjacent main electrode) and yet work safely with 2+ kV ignitors.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 03:07:39 AM by Max » Logged
Michael
Member
*****
Offline

Gender: Male
View Posts
View Gallery


Re: Difference Between Pulse Start & Probe Start Metal Halide Lamps « Reply #10 on: August 06, 2022, 03:02:10 AM » Author: Michael
Interesting topic here. For me as an European (Swiss) it is basically important to know that most common Osram HQI lamps do need a 3-5kV ignitor like SIP. Philips HPI 250/400W and MH-T need mostly a parallel ignitor up to 1000V and the HPI Plus and MHN SIP ignitor 3-5kV on SON gear. Our ballasts for SON lamps mostly also states that MH lamps of the same wattage can be used (if ballast is of a thermally protected type) thus the same ignitor can be used in some circumstances.

For the re- ignition of a HPMV lamp with a ignitor - I have encountered Philips HPL-N lamps quite easily perform an arc outside at the stem while Osram don’t. Don’t know about other brands...
Logged
Print 
© 2005-2022 Lighting-Gallery.net | SMF 2.0.19 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | Terms and Policies