Author Topic: Have you converted your house?  (Read 54330 times)
Ash
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #60 on: May 28, 2016, 09:16:39 PM » Author: Ash
Here there are the standard current ratings :

0.5
1
2
3
6
10
16
20
25
32
40
50
63
80
100

Each of them is available in types B/C/D for different trip currents, sometimes special type for some special application. For home use the choice is down to Type B (tripping for relatively small inrush conditions) vs Type C (not tripping for them). In case of doubt, use Type C everywhere and only bother about the current rating

The good part - the breakers are all standard DIN rail - you choose what manufacturer you like, regardless of what you have there now. They dont fit only panels from the same manufacturer
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #61 on: May 28, 2016, 11:19:10 PM » Author: wattMaster
The good part - the breakers are all standard DIN rail - you choose what manufacturer you like, regardless of what you have there now. They dont fit only panels from the same manufacturer
I finally know what DIN Rail is for.
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Medved
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #62 on: May 29, 2016, 02:10:09 AM » Author: Medved
Using the "C" for normal sockets and lighting is not allowed here, as the "short circuit" trigger is set too high to protect the wiring (= keep the maximum temperature below limit with any load shape "just below" the circuit breaker tripping and followed by a short circuit).
The "C" and "D" are allowed for special fixed installation (so not for sockets and lighting), but the wiring has to be derated accordingly (so while for a B16A and a cable in not well ventilated conduit 2.5mm^2 wire gauge is sufficient, for C16A you need 4mm^2; for well cooled wiring you suffice with 1.5mm^2 for a B16A).

The low amp breakers (the 6A and below) are indeed useful for the low load lighting, where it allows the use of thinner wiring (1mm^2 or so). The thinner wiring does not only occupies less space, but as well limits the current when the (mainly incandescent) lamps decide to fail and so somewhat reduce the probability of such phenomenons as exploding incandescent lamps or so.
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wattMaster
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #63 on: May 29, 2016, 07:56:18 AM » Author: wattMaster
Using the "C" for normal sockets and lighting is not allowed here, as the "short circuit" trigger is set too high to protect the wiring (= keep the maximum temperature below limit with any load shape "just below" the circuit breaker tripping and followed by a short circuit).
The "C" and "D" are allowed for special fixed installation (so not for sockets and lighting), but the wiring has to be derated accordingly (so while for a B16A and a cable in not well ventilated conduit 2.5mm^2 wire gauge is sufficient, for C16A you need 4mm^2; for well cooled wiring you suffice with 1.5mm^2 for a B16A).

The low amp breakers (the 6A and below) are indeed useful for the low load lighting, where it allows the use of thinner wiring (1mm^2 or so). The thinner wiring does not only occupies less space, but as well limits the current when the (mainly incandescent) lamps decide to fail and so somewhat reduce the probability of such phenomenons as exploding incandescent lamps or so.
Too bad we don't have those small breakers here.
Everything connected to a 15A breaker (Even lighting) has 15A wire, Even on single bulb installations.
And do you have GFCI/GFI sockets there?
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sol
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #64 on: May 29, 2016, 02:39:09 PM » Author: sol
My house, built in 2009, has one 15 A breaker for each of the following loads :
-dishwasher
-refrigerator
-120V receptacle for gas cooking stove
-175W mercury vapour street light
-whole house ventilation
-microwave oven

In the kitchen, each half of every duplex outlet at the countertop has a 15A breaker, except the GFCI ones beside the sink which each have a dedicated 20A breaker (and 15/20A T-slots).

There are no breakers in the panel smaller than 15A. The largest is a 100A 240V for the heat pump auxiliary heating coil, which is about 20 KW.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #65 on: May 29, 2016, 02:43:08 PM » Author: wattMaster
My house, built in 2009, has one 15 A breaker for each of the following loads :
-dishwasher
-refrigerator
-120V receptacle for gas cooking stove
-175W mercury vapour street light
-whole house ventilation
-microwave oven

In the kitchen, each half of every duplex outlet at the countertop has a 15A breaker, except the GFCI ones beside the sink which each have a dedicated 20A breaker (and 15/20A T-slots).

There are no breakers in the panel smaller than 15A. The largest is a 100A 240V for the heat pump auxiliary heating coil, which is about 20 KW.
Our 100 Amp breaker goes to an indoor sub-panel.
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sol
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #66 on: May 29, 2016, 02:56:11 PM » Author: sol
In most instances a large breaker such as a 100A would feed a sub panel. However, given the 20KW of heating coil, this one feeds the load directly, with 6AWG wire.

I do have a small sub panel built into the bottom of the main panel for generator backup use. It is fed by a double acting 60A breaker (I think). It has a locking bar so you can only turn on either the generator source or the mains source. The locking bar only moves when both halves of the breaker are in the off position. Furthermore, this special breaker also interrupts the neutral.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #67 on: May 29, 2016, 03:18:03 PM » Author: wattMaster
In most instances a large breaker such as a 100A would feed a sub panel. However, given the 20KW of heating coil, this one feeds the load directly, with 6AWG wire.

I do have a small sub panel built into the bottom of the main panel for generator backup use. It is fed by a double acting 60A breaker (I think). It has a locking bar so you can only turn on either the generator source or the mains source. The locking bar only moves when both halves of the breaker are in the off position. Furthermore, this special breaker also interrupts the neutral.
You have a backup generator?
We just have an old portable generator.
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sol
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #68 on: May 29, 2016, 03:33:14 PM » Author: sol
No, just a panel and outdoor connection point. I haven't gotten around to looking for one yet. I need to get a storage shed first. Of course this generator wouldn't power the whole house, just the refrigerator, water pump and a few lights and receptacles. The cost was minimal when building a house, so I went for it.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #69 on: May 29, 2016, 03:58:54 PM » Author: wattMaster
No, just a panel and outdoor connection point. I haven't gotten around to looking for one yet. I need to get a storage shed first. Of course this generator wouldn't power the whole house, just the refrigerator, water pump and a few lights and receptacles. The cost was minimal when building a house, so I went for it.
You wouldn't need a storage shed for this generator. They have their own enclosure, And if you put it in a shed, It would have to be big and have loads of ventilation.
If that's all you want, You can just use a portable generator and an extension cord.
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sol
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #70 on: May 29, 2016, 04:02:38 PM » Author: sol
Yes, a portable generator. I would use it outdoors as you describe, but store it in the shed. I have no place to store it but in a shed.
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #71 on: May 29, 2016, 04:23:44 PM » Author: wattMaster
Yes, a portable generator. I would use it outdoors as you describe, but store it in the shed. I have no place to store it but in a shed.
We store ours under Awnings.
Then we put a concrete mixing tub over it.
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Ash
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #72 on: May 29, 2016, 05:41:38 PM » Author: Ash
Here B and C are used for home circuits, D is not

Current code requires 2.5mm^2 from 16A breaker (whether B or C) and up to any end receptacle that can take "any load". It is allowed to branch from the 16A circuit with 1.5mm^2 for fixed loads that cannot exceed 10A (except short circuits), so for example if a room is on 16A breaker, the main wiring to the room and the wiring to each receptacle is 2.5, the lighting is 1.5

There are no problems with 2.5 on C16A breaker, neither on G16A and L16A types that existed in the past. The cable installation methods used here are 3 single conductors pulled in a plastic pipe inside a wall, or sometimes N2XY cable in pipe or in the open (inside drop ceilings)



We dont havd GFCI sockets. the equivalent device is RCD - a breaker in the panel - it is a separate breaker providing only the GF function, and must be connected in series with the current limiting breaker. Usually one RCD is used for multiple circuits, that is :

Input power --> main current limiting breaker --> one or more RCDs, each RCD --> one or more 16A breakers --> circuits

The standard RCD used in homes is of completely electromagnetic construction, there are no electronics inside. The Phase (or 3 Phases) and Neutral for the circuit go through a current transformer where they normally cancel out. The secondary from the transformer is connected to the magnet coil that trips the breaker



Current code requires separate 16A 2.5mm^2 circuit for each single receptacle in the kitchen. In the past (80s 90s) the requirements were 1 separate 16A 2.5mm^2 for the oven, and everything else could be on the same circuit including same circuit with things in other rooms. In the more far past (70s) it was same but with 1.5mm^2

This is about what a "standard" home panel is like :

2000s :

40A main
 - 20A aircon
 - 16A aircon
 - 16A aircon
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 16A dryer
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms
 - 16A rooms
 - 16A outdoors
 - 16A garage
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 10A lighting
 - 10A lighting
 - 6A lighting

90s :

32A main
 - 20A aircon
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting + outdoors
 - 16A garage
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen
 - 10A lighting
 - 10A lighting

80s :

25A main
 - 16A aircon
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting
 - 16A rooms incl. lighting + outdoors + garage
 - 16A kitchen
 - 16A kitchen incl. lighting
 - 10A lighting

70s :

25A main
 - 16A water tank heater
 - 16A washing machine
 - 10A half the house incl. lighting
 - 10A half the house incl. lighting
 - 16A kitchen

60s :

No main
 - 15A fuse water tank heater
 - 15A fuse half the house incl. lighting
 - 15A fuse half the house incl. lighting + kitchen
 - 15A fuse lighting
 - 15A fuse lighting
main wiring between the fuses was usually 1.5 too, that is, this short 1.5 wire could carry the load from multiple 15A circuits. In the best case it was a 2.5

50s :

No main
 - 30A fuse all the house
 - 15A fuse water tank heater
The 30A fuse was feeding directly multiple 1.5mm^2 circuits, basically all the house (there was no overload protection at all, it was assumed that people dont have enough appliances to oveload one of the 1.5 branches. In following years this became wrong assumption, and it was common occurence that the wiring burns off and opens or melts the isolation and shorts in those old systems. Nasty legacy from the 1st years of the state)
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #73 on: May 29, 2016, 06:21:24 PM » Author: wattMaster
Wow, That's a lot of evolution for breakers.
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sol
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Re: Have you converted your house? « Reply #74 on: May 29, 2016, 09:04:29 PM » Author: sol
@Ash, the history you present here is roughly what it was here only for 120V and the amperage is roughly twice what you specify for the main breakers because of this. The major difference is I believe there were no installations that didn't have a main fuse or circuit breaker. There was a time when panels were made with a main circuit breaker but individual circuits were protected by fuses. Early panels only had 2-4 fuses, and some protected quite large circuits such as all the house lighting, etc. People would screw out a bad fuse and put a coin in the back and then screw in the bad fuse again, effectively removing the fuse from the circuit altogether. That is why the insurance inspectors removed all fuses from the panel of a burnt house during post-fire inspections.
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