Author Topic: Kr-85  (Read 13468 times)
wattMaster
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #30 on: September 04, 2016, 05:56:38 PM » Author: wattMaster
Aren't there LEDs available with 2 chips in antiparallel?
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Medved
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #31 on: September 04, 2016, 06:57:21 PM » Author: Medved
I've only seen that configuration when each die was for different color (red for one polarity, green for the opposite).
Not yet for the same color.

And recently (well, that means already nearly 10 years ago) the high power white LED "ACRICHE" of the first and maybe second generation (from Cree? - that I do not remember anymore). There the diodes were not only in antiparallel configuration, but about 30 such pairs in series as well. And all that on a single chip (then there were 4 such chips in series in one "3W" power LED package). But I don't think it is still made - it was expensive like hell (about $25 for a "230VAC" module containing one such LED package and few ballast resistors) and had rather low efficacy (barely 50lm/W if I remember well).
But that was intended as a light source, not an indicator...
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #32 on: September 04, 2016, 07:01:36 PM » Author: wattMaster
I've only seen that configuration when each die was for different color (red for one polarity, green for the opposite).
Not yet for the same color.
Maybe you could make it a blended color lighted switch? I heard that doing this without any "smoothing" (capacitors) makes the LED have a very wild flicker, if you move your eyes, the color seems to magically change.
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #33 on: September 04, 2016, 07:12:32 PM » Author: Medved
Maybe you could make it a blended color lighted switch? I heard that doing this without any "smoothing" (capacitors) makes the LED have a very wild flicker, if you move your eyes, the color seems to magically change.

That would be scary... :-D
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #34 on: September 04, 2016, 07:14:37 PM » Author: wattMaster

That would be scary... :-D

It could also mean that you could increase the power and not hurt the chips, but it would also increase the scariness. ;D
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #35 on: September 05, 2016, 12:05:53 AM » Author: Ash
The LED manufacturers would happily make same color antiparallel LEDs on request (in big quantity). And sinle LED woul probably not flicker as harsh as some LED lighting becuse it lights for longer part of the time
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #36 on: September 05, 2016, 02:57:50 AM » Author: Medved
The LED manufacturers would happily make same color antiparallel LEDs on request (in big quantity). And sinle LED woul probably not flicker as harsh as some LED lighting becuse it lights for longer part of the time

And set the price according to the production volume, quotas starting for 1 million units per year...
The thing is, such market is quite small, compare to standard LED's.
Many things that use such indicators have their lifetime shorter than the life of the Neon indicator bulb in there (hot water kettle will need to survive 100 years for the indicator to reach 1000 hour mark,...)
And when someone want to use the LED as an indicator, either the two extra diodes or rectifier and/or two LED's (using two lighted dots as a design feature) use to be cheaper approach.
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #37 on: September 05, 2016, 03:58:25 AM » Author: Ash
Is the market for RGB flashing LEDs and other rainbow unicorns any bigger than for AC line voltage indicator LEDs ?
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #38 on: September 05, 2016, 04:31:47 AM » Author: Medved
Is the market for RGB flashing LEDs and other rainbow unicorns any bigger than for AC line voltage indicator LEDs ?

For the "rainbow unicorns" they may ask way higher price, because there is no other way how to reach the target application. So even when the volume is not that high, the higher cost makes the extra tooling still profitable
But the same color antiparallel has it's competition in dirt cheap Ne tubes and in classic LED's with just few extra components around. And that gives there not much financial room there...
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #39 on: September 05, 2016, 11:42:40 AM » Author: wattMaster
I noticed that the starters in my billiard light have this "fear of darkness", in dark conditions, it takes as much as 10 seconds for it to activate, but if I turn on a smartphone screen, it immediately starts.
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #40 on: September 05, 2016, 06:24:49 PM » Author: Ash
Power of One (one Photon to start it all)

In the "dark" condition, is there still any ligtht around ? I wonder if the average time befre the starter lights can be made longer (to the order of minute or more) by making the place darker, or blocking light from the starter somehow (if metal can starter, close the hole with duct tape)
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #41 on: September 05, 2016, 08:32:35 PM » Author: wattMaster
Power of One (one Photon to start it all)

In the "dark" condition, is there still any ligtht around ? I wonder if the average time befre the starter lights can be made longer (to the order of minute or more) by making the place darker, or blocking light from the starter somehow (if metal can starter, close the hole with duct tape)
The only light would be from the LED streetlight outside, and any lights outside of the room. The starters are also blocked by the fluorescent tubes, which means less light could get in.
Could you use this property to make a photon detector?
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #42 on: September 06, 2016, 02:00:35 AM » Author: Medved
It is not only the tube, what blocks the external light, The case of the starter block sognificant amount of light as well, mainly the metallic ones (they had just a small hole on the top).

I know when people tried to make Neon tube clocks (the Neon indicators were really the base for the clock counters, not just the display), the clock panel had to be illuminated by some LEDs to keep the counters working. Without that illumination it started to act erratically...
And when I tried to build such counter as an experiment, it really needed light with not that deep flicker to work at all...
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #43 on: September 06, 2016, 03:52:20 AM » Author: Ash
The placement of the starter behind the tube end might be actually intended to help in starting - The tube Phosphors might have some tiny Phosphorescence remaining, and this way the starter hole is right in front of the tube

Try to block the starter hole with duct tape and see if the dark time becomes way longer

I'd expect another Neon on smooted DC to be used for the illumination of the Neon clock..
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Re: Kr-85 « Reply #44 on: September 06, 2016, 10:27:32 AM » Author: Medved
I'd expect another Neon on smooted DC to be used for the illumination of the Neon clock..

Actually I've tried that and it does not work that well. Probably because the Neon does not radiation is of not high enough energy (don't forget the Neon UV is blocked by the glass) to be as efficient as the blue LED commonly used with the designs I've seen...
Needed to say, the Neon bulbs availav=ble are designed to have as small difference between ignition vs steady voltage to get stable discharge, while the counter requires this difference to be as high as possible. In the past there were glow lamps specifically designed for this digital operation, but since they were replaced by semiconductors, they disappeared from the manufacturer's product lists...
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