Author Topic: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code?  (Read 3328 times)
Rommie
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #15 on: August 22, 2020, 05:21:35 PM » Author: Rommie
Does code in UK also ban installing more than one outlet, at or beyond the 3m distance ?
No outlets at all within 3m of a bath or shower. No restrictions on what you put outside the room. But as I said, if anyone insists on taking an extension lead in and plugging it in outside, then they're on their own and may Darwin be proud of them.
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #16 on: August 23, 2020, 01:10:49 AM » Author: joseph_125
Speaking of those UK shaver outlets, there are some older bathrooms here that were equipped with a similar "shavers only" outlet. They typically had a small isolation transformer in the wall junction box. They're getting rare to find as most people have retrofitted GFCI outlets in their place.

A GFCI on a 20A circuit is typical for new construction here, the extra amperage is to accommodate newer hair dryers which draw upwards of 1875w. In older construction the bathroom outlets were on a 15A circuit, typically shared with other rooms.

A side note, most bathrooms here have the switches for the light and fan on the inside. Bathrooms with switches on the outside exist, but are relatively rare.   
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Cole D.
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #17 on: August 23, 2020, 07:51:46 AM » Author: Cole D.
Speaking of those UK shaver outlets, there are some older bathrooms here that were equipped with a similar "shavers only" outlet. They typically had a small isolation transformer in the wall junction box. They're getting rare to find as most people have retrofitted GFCI outlets in their place.

A GFCI on a 20A circuit is typical for new construction here, the extra amperage is to accommodate newer hair dryers which draw upwards of 1875w. In older construction the bathroom outlets were on a 15A circuit, typically shared with other rooms.

A side note, most bathrooms here have the switches for the light and fan on the inside. Bathrooms with switches on the outside exist, but are relatively rare.   

I've heard of those shaver outlets being used in the United States, but haven't come across any. Some older homes I've noticed used a combination device single light switch/single outlet, instead of a regular duplex outlet and separate toggle switch.

In even older homes, such as 1950/60s and prior, it seemed common to use wall-mounted light fixtures that contained their own pull chain or rotary switches (either one or two sconces, or having fluorescent lights built into the medicine cabinet) and if there were any outlets the would be on those fixtures.
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #18 on: August 24, 2020, 12:10:07 AM » Author: takemorepills
The fixtures with outlets can still be sold because they are intended to replace similar, failed fixtures in older homes.

Of course, a licensed electrician wouldn't install such a fixture in a newer home, but it's allowed for older homes.

As for people from the UK complaining about outlets in a bathroom, where else would you run a toaster? You Brits sure are a snobby lot!

In USA we love to give out Darwin awards!
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joseph_125
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #19 on: August 24, 2020, 12:31:11 AM » Author: joseph_125
I've heard of those shaver outlets being used in the United States, but haven't come across any. Some older homes I've noticed used a combination device single light switch/single outlet, instead of a regular duplex outlet and separate toggle switch.

In even older homes, such as 1950/60s and prior, it seemed common to use wall-mounted light fixtures that contained their own pull chain or rotary switches (either one or two sconces, or having fluorescent lights built into the medicine cabinet) and if there were any outlets the would be on those fixtures.

I think I have only ever saw those shaver only outlets here once. It was in a 1960s rest stop washroom that has long since gotten demolished.

The fixtures with outlets can still be sold because they are intended to replace similar, failed fixtures in older homes.

Of course, a licensed electrician wouldn't install such a fixture in a newer home, but it's allowed for older homes.

As for people from the UK complaining about outlets in a bathroom, where else would you run a toaster? You Brits sure are a snobby lot!

In USA we love to give out Darwin awards!

Yeah I figured they were still made and sold for replacement purposes. I think they made those two prong T slot tandem outlets years after they were banned in new construction for replacement.
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Ash
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #20 on: August 24, 2020, 04:52:09 PM » Author: Ash
In Israel (which electrical codes are generally similar to central Europe), there are 4 zones defined in a bathroom :

0. Floor square inside the shower cabin, or inside the bathtub volume
1. Above 0 up to the ceiling
2. From the edge of the shower cabin or bathtub, sideways up to 0.6m (2ft) away, and up to 2.25m (7.5ft) height
3. From the end of 2, sideways up to 2.4m (8ft) away, and up to 2.25m (7.5ft) height



Sockets are allowed in zone 3. They must be protected either by RCD or by isolation transformer

Lighting of all types is allowed in zone 3. Lighting with double isolation is allowed in zone 2. If the luminaire installed in zone 2 or 3 contains a switch, the switch must be of the pull cord type and the cord must be of non conductive material

Electrical shower heater unit is allowed in zones 1, 2, 3

Other appliances of all types are allowed in zone 3

In addition there is requirement for waterproofing of devices installed in each zone : IPx5, IPx4, IPx1 for 1, 2, 3 respectively

The zone outside of 0...3 (so, more than 3m away from the shower, or higher then 2.25m from the floor near the shower) is unregulated and there are no limitations on what can be installed there



So there is no prohibition to install sockets in zone 3 or in the unnumbered zone, whether stand alone, or built into a luminaire or furniture

IPx1 requirement means protection from vertical dripping

The source of vertical dripping in a bathroom is from condensate. For a wall socket, this means that there must be a gasket behind its faceplate, which would prevent condensate droplets from sliding on the wall into the socket (from the wall area above it). For a socket built into something, this means that either it does not accumulate much condensate anyway (such as the side of a luminaire, it have too little surface area), or is facing down (common in mirror frames etc)



This seems to me fairly safe, if not a little too strict in places. For example, the code does not allow for a luminaire with a rocker switch, even though waterproof rocker switches are widely available and are not less safe than a pull cord
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #21 on: August 24, 2020, 05:30:51 PM » Author: Wireman
In Israel (which electrical codes are generally similar to central Europe), there are 4 zones defined in a bathroom :

0. Floor square inside the shower cabin, or inside the bathtub volume
1. Above 0 up to the ceiling
2. From the edge of the shower cabin or bathtub, sideways up to 0.6m (2ft) away, and up to 2.25m (7.5ft) height
3. From the end of 2, sideways up to 2.4m (8ft) away, and up to 2.25m (7.5ft) height



Sockets are allowed in zone 3. They must be protected either by RCD or by isolation transformer

Lighting of all types is allowed in zone 3. Lighting with double isolation is allowed in zone 2. If the luminaire installed in zone 2 or 3 contains a switch, the switch must be of the pull cord type and the cord must be of non conductive material

Electrical shower heater unit is allowed in zones 1, 2, 3

Other appliances of all types are allowed in zone 3

In addition there is requirement for waterproofing of devices installed in each zone : IPx5, IPx4, IPx1 for 1, 2, 3 respectively

The zone outside of 0...3 (so, more than 3m away from the shower, or higher then 2.25m from the floor near the shower) is unregulated and there are no limitations on what can be installed there



So there is no prohibition to install sockets in zone 3 or in the unnumbered zone, whether stand alone, or built into a luminaire or furniture

IPx1 requirement means protection from vertical dripping

The source of vertical dripping in a bathroom is from condensate. For a wall socket, this means that there must be a gasket behind its faceplate, which would prevent condensate droplets from sliding on the wall into the socket (from the wall area above it). For a socket built into something, this means that either it does not accumulate much condensate anyway (such as the side of a luminaire, it have too little surface area), or is facing down (common in mirror frames etc)



This seems to me fairly safe, if not a little too strict in places. For example, the code does not allow for a luminaire with a rocker switch, even though waterproof rocker switches are widely available and are not less safe than a pull cord
WOW! I thought learning the codes here in the States is tricky!
Not to sound like I'm criticizing, not at all, this is a very meticulous approach though it sounds very safe.
The American code for the bathroom is so much more straight forward.
Sometimes I wonder if the American and European codes are any safer than the other?
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Rommie
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #22 on: August 24, 2020, 05:36:23 PM » Author: Rommie
I still believe our approach is the safest. I really cannot understand why anyone really needs to use electrical appliances, apart perhaps for a shaver or a toothbrush, and most of the ones I've seen lately have been rechargeable, certainly our toothbrush is (not much use for the other one  :lol:) so we charge it in the bedroom. Same with the hairdryer, we either use it in the bedroom or the hall, big mirrors in both, no need to do it in the bathroom.

Anything else (radios, phone chargers, whatever else) doesn't need to be used in there, so why do it..?
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Ria (aka Rommie) in Aberdeen
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Wireman
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #23 on: August 24, 2020, 05:47:06 PM » Author: Wireman
I still believe our approach is the safest. I really cannot understand why anyone really needs to use electrical appliances, apart perhaps for a shaver or a toothbrush, and most of the ones I've seen lately have been rechargeable, certainly our toothbrush is (not much use for the other one  :lol:) so we charge it in the bedroom. Same with the hairdryer, we either use it in the bedroom or the hall, big mirrors in both, no need to do it in the bathroom.

Anything else (radios, phone chargers, whatever else) doesn't need to be used in there, so why do it..?
I realize that kitchens aren't quite as dangerous as the bathroom for water and electricity.
Still how does the European codes deal with electrical appliances being used close to a kitchen sink?
Sounds about as dangerous as using a hair dryer next to a bathroom sink to me.
Not to sound difficult but kitchens seem almost as dangerous for getting a shock.
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 05:59:16 PM » Author: Rommie
Yeah there is that, we do have a socket quite close to the sink and I really want to move it. Crazy really, but at least in a kitchen you're not likely to be standing in the sink  :lol:
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #25 on: August 25, 2020, 02:01:49 AM » Author: Ash
In the bathroom the assumption is that you have just came out of the shower and are soaked with water, wetting everything you touch, and all surfaces in the room are covered with condensate. This is not the case for the kitchen, there just a drip proof socket is required if close to the sink

Socket in bathroom can be used for hairdryer, space heaters, towel warmers, furniture (cabinet with mirror with lighting etc), washing machines and dryers (in many older homes they are in the bathroom), rechargeable gadgets, .....

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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #26 on: August 25, 2020, 11:44:58 PM » Author: Xytrell
Curling irons, straightening irons, air purifiers, hair dryers, and probably a dozen feminine products I can't remember. Brits don't use any of those in the bathroom, huh? Strange.
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #27 on: August 25, 2020, 11:59:59 PM » Author: Bulbman256
Yeah there is that, we do have a socket quite close to the sink and I really want to move it. Crazy really, but at least in a kitchen you're not likely to be standing in the sink  :lol:

I mean...



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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #28 on: August 26, 2020, 08:58:36 AM » Author: Mandolin Girl
Curling irons, straightening irons, air purifiers, hair dryers, and probably a dozen feminine products I can't remember. Brits don't use any of those in the bathroom, huh? Strange.
Over on this side of the pond, some British people have dressing tables in their bedrooms, or other dedicated spaces for doing that, like we do.  :P
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Re: Do convenience outlets on light fixtures meet NEC code? « Reply #29 on: August 26, 2020, 09:15:55 AM » Author: Rommie
Over on this side of the pond, some British people have dressing tables in their bedrooms, or other dedicated spaces for doing that, like we do.  :P
Which is exactly where you should be drying your hair, not in the [censored] bathroom  :lol:
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Ria (aka Rommie) in Aberdeen
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