Author Topic: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe  (Read 3368 times)
WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
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How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « on: November 10, 2020, 04:01:12 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
If anyone is interested in operating US HID lamps in Europe using the correct gear designed for them, here is a video tutorial for that:

https://youtu.be/_dgO0HdPMds
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #1 on: November 10, 2020, 04:21:18 PM » Author: Binarix128
Yep, using a 12v power supply with a 120v 60hz inverter is the best idea for most things but some old audio devices are too sensitive to the switching noises or sine wave modulated PWM signals, which can bring annoying harmonics into your system, like with cheap phone chargers or power banks. Even if you see a smooth signal in the oscilloscope there will still be some noise that can mess up with your device. I plugged an HDMI to AV converter into a cheap phone charger and the noise is visible in the composite video output.
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Medved
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #2 on: November 10, 2020, 04:25:16 PM » Author: Medved
There is one very important detail, not mentioned in the video (although it seemed to me it was correct in the video):
For anything except pure resistive and peak rectifier things you really need a true sinewave inverter.

The cheaper and seemingly less lossy (for the loads they are intended for) modified sinewave are good only for pure resistive loads and things using only rectifier with filter capacitor as the input (either directly or behind a transformer). In fact devices which mostly do not mind the frequency either, so suffice with the transformer.

But for anything that uses some reactance element (inductor or a capacitor; not only as RF suppressor), or some motor, you really need true sinewave.
Using modified sinewave with a capacitor means you get huge current spikes, which may overload quite a big part of the circuit elements, even include wild ringing causing overvoltages. Plus you may fry the inverter with it.
Using an inductive element (inductor ballast, motor,...) means you get lower current than designed for (the current, so magnetic fields are related to the "rectified average" value of the voltage, which uses to be 40% lower on MSW than on true sinewave).
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #3 on: November 10, 2020, 05:24:44 PM » Author: Mandolin Girl
Yes, that's what we have, a Wagan 400W pure sine wave 120V/60Hz inverter, running off a 32A desktop power supply set at 13.5V  :)
Works brilliantly  8)

Of course the inverse would work equally as well for those over the pond.
Run a pure sine wave 230V/50Hz inverter off a 12V supply, and get the correct ballasts for the lamps.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 05:33:30 PM by Mandolin Girl » Logged

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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #4 on: November 10, 2020, 08:21:52 PM » Author: Binarix128
If you need 120v for a resistive load just use a step down transformer, because a resistive load won't mind if it is operated on 50Hz or 60Hz, but again, never go for the cheapest "sine wave" inverters as those can be modified square wave, or can not maintain the sine wave under the loads or they are just too noisy. The best way to get a pure sinewave free of noises and things is by a gasoline generator, but the least convenient one.  @-@
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #5 on: November 10, 2020, 08:56:57 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Are there 12v power supplies that use 120v 60hz inputs so that anyone in the US can use 240v 50hz lighting in America using a 240v 50hz inverter?
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #6 on: November 10, 2020, 09:58:26 PM » Author: Binarix128
There are power supplies for all voltages, and any power supply that you find locally will run at your voltage. Or you can just run your incandescent bulbs between two phases and it will do the trick. You can make a special lamp holder with a cord that you can plug into your stove or washing machine outlet where there are 200-240V you can use for your lamps.
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #7 on: November 10, 2020, 10:15:32 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
True, this does apply to incandescent lamps, but for ballasts for gas discharge lamps, ballasts often need a specific frequency to operate.
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DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #8 on: November 10, 2020, 10:29:24 PM » Author: Binarix128
The two phases trick works perfectly with incandescent bulbs, maybe SBMVs, and resistive ballasted discharge lamps kn general, but ballasts might not be too happy, so for 220V 50Hz ballasts you need a true sine wave inverter. Modified square signals might fry your ballast or inverter.
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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #9 on: November 11, 2020, 11:24:30 PM » Author: funkybulb
 Here Some ballast are rated 50 / 60 HZ so do my step up transformers.  Frequency in Hertz is mostly how iron core become staturated.   Here We can get away with lot more
 using 50 Hz chokes and ballast.  50 Hz have  a slower and longer on duty cycle that can heat up the core to point it damage the  windings.   Meaning u need lot more iron to
 For it to work right.   But only problem is leading capcitive and
inductive load such as my 8 foot popular pack.  The capacitor
In series with choke will take a 960 mA rated ballast on 60 Hz
 And that ballast will end up driving your lamp 1250 mA that the
Only problem I have in the US.


 I do have a inveter that Have a Xantrex Sine wave inverter
 That do 240/120 volt and with a flip of a switch I can go to 50 Hz.    Cheap modified sinewave inverter they like to drift off in Hz when your batteries go low.

Second way get is a Veriable frequncy drive.   To control speed
 Of induction motors,  it not the voltage or current,  but the Hertz what dictate the speed of the induction motor.  With that
U can control how many Hz going into the electric motor
  To change it speed.   That prolly cheapest way.   And some of
 Them will run single phase input and 3 phase output.

      If u ever get some Aircraft Fluorescent ballast dont attemp to run 400 Hz ballast on 50 or 60 Hz.   Those things are lot smaller and lighter in weight.



 



 







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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #10 on: November 12, 2020, 05:05:10 AM » Author: Medved
The VFDs are not usable for pretty anything else but motors. The reason is, they give out high frequency PWM pulses of about 380..400V (for 230V between 0hases rated motors; about 600V for motors rated 400V between phases), whivh only average out to the sinewave of the set voltage and frequency. The voltage increases with the frequency according to a programmed table/function, in order to maintain the flux in the motor constant, so its torque matching its rating, over the whole speed range. This function is usually fixed, only has one or two configurable parameters (voltage at near stop and some may have voltage for no inal frequency adjustable as well)
Motors dont mind these pulses, they run on the integral (average) anyway, but transformers pass that mess pretty unchanged, so behind e.g. a rectifier it will appear like 280..300V on the input, so likely frying what is behind the rectifier.
To really work like sinewave inverter, you would have to add a liw pass filter to tye output, filtering the PFM mess to the true sinewave. But they wont be damped, plus with some advanced VFDs the thing may confuse the controller, which normally evaluates the current vs voltage phase shift and detect tye real rotor speed, so makes the frequency to follow the true rotor speed to maintain the torque even when the motor gets overliaded, or reduces the voltage, so losses, when there is very light mechanical load. These features may do very crazy things, when you connect there anything else than the induction (or permanent magnet synchronous) motor they are designed and set to work with.
So using a motor VFD instead of an AC inverter is not good idea at all.

The real sinewave AC inverters do work internally the same way, but on way higher PWM frequency, so way easier to filter, plus have those filtres already build in. And properly damped by the control circuits, so tyey do not form crazy response on e.g. load transienrs or so.


Ballasts which are rated for both 50/60Hz are usually the electronic ones, where the AC feeds just a rectifier.

For the overheating at 50Hz:
The core is not what is overheating. The core only saturates, so reduces the inductance of the coil, in the case of a transformer it reduces its main inductance.
What overheats the coil is the extra winding current the inductance reduction causes, when there is no other current limitting device in series and when the current becomes really high. It is just this current heating up the winding wire resistance, nothing else.
If you limit the current to a value not overheating the winding, you may saturate the core all day long without any ill effects. In fact CWA ballasts saturate the magnetic shunt all the time. Same all magnetic amplifiers, many even work at 50..90kHz in that way (common in 3.3V branch regulation in ATX and newer PC power supply boxes, uses as secondary PWM switching device to derive the 3.3V from the "5V" main transformer winding), or the feedback toroidal transformer in the basic two bipolar fluorescent ballast circuits stabilizes the arc current that way. Or large power incandescent dimmers were using magnetic amplifiers as the phase control switching elements before thyristors became available for that use.

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Re: How to get a 120v 60hz supply in Europe « Reply #11 on: November 17, 2020, 01:17:01 PM » Author: Rommie
There are power supplies for all voltages, and any power supply that you find locally will run at your voltage. Or you can just run your incandescent bulbs between two phases and it will do the trick. You can make a special lamp holder with a cord that you can plug into your stove or washing machine outlet where there are 200-240V you can use for your lamps.
That only works if you actually have two phases, which residential properties here generally don't. We already had the high capacity 32A DC power supply, so the 400W pure sine wave inverter made the most sense.
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