Author Topic: Question about control gear  (Read 3922 times)
light finatic
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Question about control gear « on: December 11, 2013, 08:40:57 PM » Author: light finatic
will using some control gear that is rated for 220-240v 50hz on 220-240v 60hz damage it?
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Medved
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 01:14:44 AM » Author: Medved
It depend, what gear we are talking about.

Electronic have usually no problem when running on slightly higher frequency than designed for, as it start with some form of rectifier and then the main ballast run in fact on DC power.
Resistive ballasts are not sensitive to frequency either.

But anything else become tricky.

But the magnetic gear rely to inductive and capacitive reactances, whose shift by 20%. On top of that, the magnetic flux values in the cores shift by the 20% as well, what may lead (when going down with the frequency) to not designed core saturation and consequent overheat.

Plain transformer (e.g. for incandescents,...) running on higher frequency will have only 20% higher reactance component in the output impedance, so in most cases not a problem. But running that on a lower frequency would mean core saturation and consequent overheat.

With simple gear as the series choke and/or HX transformer, increasing  the frequency lower the current, so the lamp would run at 20% lower current than rated.

But mainly the gear relying on a resonance would have large trouble: As in the resonance, the resulting impedance is some form of subtraction, where the capacitive reactancces shift in the other directions than the inductive, so even when both shift by the 20%, the difference could become way off.
Mainly problems would be with the CWA style, which is normally designed to operate ~20..50% below the internal resonance frequency, but as you increase the frequency, you may just match the operating frequency with the resonance or go above, yielding to severe overcurrents and so destruction. And that will destroy both, the capacitor (high currents cause high voltage, exceeding it's rating), as well as the wound component (by the heat).

So for gear designed for 50Hz, running on 60Hz:
Electronic: 90% OK
Resistive: OK
Plain transformer: 90% OK
Series choke and/or HX: questionable (yield lower lamp current)
CWA or so: NO-NO

And gear designed for 60Hz, run at 50Hz:
Electronic: Questionable (filter behind the rectifier could be insufficient)
Resistive: OK
Plain transformer: NO (with reduced voltage to 82% maybe, but the output would be lower as well)
Series choke and/or HX: NO (with reduced voltage to 82% maybe, but the output OCV lower as well)
CWA or so: NO-NO
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migette1
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Peter


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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #2 on: January 01, 2014, 12:01:44 PM » Author: migette1
Hi just a quicky may part answer,

I picked a microwave oven up from a bootsale which was from Korea and rated 240V the wires were black and white fitted to a schuko plug but it was for 60Hz as used by that country, here it over heated the transformer which was smaller in size to the UK version I changed it for this case it did matter, frequency difference can also effect timers that work on freq 50Hz would run slow on 60Hz system. hope This helps.
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Medved
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #3 on: January 01, 2014, 01:21:41 PM » Author: Medved
When converting the microwave from 60 to 50Hz, you have to replace the capacitor as well, otherwise it won't work correctly. The microwave uses a kind of CWI ballast (main impedance is the capacitor, the transformer leakage inductance stabilizes the current,...), so the transformer, capacitor and frequency are hard tight together.
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light finatic
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 03:55:19 PM » Author: light finatic
A few days ago, i powered up my 26 watt sox-e lamp and gear on 240V 60hz, It did not appear to damage my control gear, but about a minute after it had warmed up all the way, it started to flicker and the ingnitor which was made for 50/60 hz was doing this. would using a 7UF capacitor across the mains solve this? :-\
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 04:48:05 PM » Author: Medved
... would using a 7UF capacitor across the mains solve this? :-\

No capacitor across the mains input would solve anything. The mains itself is of way lower impedance than anything from the ballast, so whatever you connect there won't have any effect on the lamp at all.

The fact the ignitor interfered, was most likely caused by the lamp exhibiting higher voltage drop than the ignitor was designed for (the ignitor "think" the lamp extinguished, so tried to "restart" it).
This could be of one of just two hypothetical causes:
- The ignitor work incorrectly on 60Hz. Well, I doubt that, assuming the ignitor is in good "health". First you mention it is rated for both 50 and 60Hz, so it should work correctly on both frequencies. And as second, how I know the ignitor designs, they are made sensitive just on the voltage, with some small phase lag. So they are really quite insensitive devices.  But taking the small sensitivity, the phase lag circuit makes their triggering voltage even higher on higher frequency, so such problem (false ignitor tripping) I would expect rather on 50Hz and definitely not on 60Hz. So again, I doubt the ignitor being the cause.
- The lamp has higher voltage drop than it should. This could be caused by multiple effects:
  - Worn out lamp: Assume the lamp is not that old, I do not expect. Definitely not related to frequency. But plausible.
  - Too low arc current, yielding too cold cathodes, so higher cathode fall. If I understood well, the ballast is rated 240V/50Hz (UK), but you operate it on 240V/60Hz. Because the ballast is primarily an inductor, 20% higher frequency mean 20% higher impedance, so 20% lower arc current. How to overcome? Look for lower voltage taps on the ballast ("200V" tap would be the best, but the "220V" would still mean an improvement towards present). Why the ballast does not heat up? Why it should, when the current is 20% lower, so the dissipation in the copper is about 35% lower than rated?
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light finatic
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 07:12:04 PM » Author: light finatic
Ignitor is a Philips SX26, control gear is BSX26L82.  Chick this link to see my control gear.NOTE: i am not using a 4UF capacitor, I use a 7UF.  :a_sox: :a_sox: :a_sox:  http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=3019&pos=3&pid=88290
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 01:41:51 AM » Author: Medved
i am not using a 4UF capacitor, I use a 7UF.

Whichever, the capacitor has no influence on the lamp behavior/performance at all. So if you put there none, it will be the same as 4uF, 7uF or even 40uF, no influence at all. The only thing you will affect is the current load on the input wires, but not the lamp.
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light finatic
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 07:52:48 PM » Author: light finatic
WHAT???
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #9 on: January 06, 2014, 12:52:16 AM » Author: Medved
You are using a series reactor style ballast (= coil in series with the lamp), so the only thing playing any role there are the ballast coil, lamp, ignitor and mains voltage and frequency.
The capacitor connected parallel to the mains have no effect on the lamp at all.

It's purpose is to only correct the power factor, so to reduce the current in the feeding wires of large installations. So when on a 10A breaker you may connect only about 16 fixtures with 35W lamps without the capacitor, while more of them may trip it. Adding a correct PFC capacitor increase this figure to more than 50 fixtures of the same type. But that is the only function of the capacitor, nothing else.

But as far as I understood, wiring load is not your problem, your problem is ignitor firing, when it should not. So as the capacitor does not have effect on the lamp, you may connect whatever you want there (include no capacitor at all), but it will not solve your problem with the improper lamp circuit operation.

By the way when you have look on the schematic diagram on the ballast (the link you have published): It shows no capacitor. That mean, the capacitor is not an essential part to run the lamp, it is not necessary for the circuit operation, so if you don't mind the lower power factor in your installation (e.g. only small scale one, with just one or only few fixtures), you do not need to bother with it.

The crazy capacitor values I wrote there were just a bit sarcastic way to emphasise the capacitor really does not matter, so it can not be the cause of the problems, so you have to look elsewhere to find it...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 01:11:13 AM by Medved » Logged

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light finatic
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #10 on: January 06, 2014, 11:04:09 AM » Author: light finatic
The ignitor is rated 50/60 HZ. Why does the ignitor show a capacitor in the wiring diagram?
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Medved
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #11 on: January 06, 2014, 05:24:19 PM » Author: Medved
It does show the capacitor, but not it's value, right?
I think it is there to just depict, where to connect it, if used...
With the power factor correction there is one thing: Most installtions are the street lights, which belong to the "large" category, so there the power factor correction is a must, just to keep the load of the feed wiring under control.
Other aspect is, the code require certain minimum power factor, where this figure becomes higher for higher wattage appliances. The SOX alone have power factor around 0.3 and that is (already for quite long time) way below the required minimum for the ~35W power input (I assume 10W as ballast losses), so the circuit need power factor correction to meet the code imposed minimum requirement.

But the fact the capacitor is needed for the lantern to be COMPLIANT with the code does not mean this circuit actually need it to OPERATE the lamp.

Well, this statement is not valid only for the semiparallel ignitors (used for HPS and MH's), where the ballast act as a HV pulse step up transformer to transform ~750V from the ignitor up to 4kV for the lamp, where the primary pulse current have to return via the mains back to the ignitor, so the mains have to be at least decoupled by some uF.
But this is not your case, you have direct parallel ignitor, so the ignition pulse current flow only between the ignitor and lamp.

That was about the capacitor, so now why your setup does not work:

As the ignitor is rated for both 50 and 60Hz, it can not cause any such problem (interference with ignited lamp) related to 60Hz. As I tried to explain, such problem occur only at 50Hz with "60Hz only" rated ignitor (lower frequency cause the trigger voltage to go down). That is not your case - as I understood, on 50Hz the setup worked well.

So the lamp arc voltage should be higher than normal for some reason, so it exceed the trigger voltage of the ignitor. Then why that? It can have only two possible causes: Faulty lamp and/or external condition.
And the external condition I see here is the lower than rated current (so the electrodes need higher cathode fall voltage to keep them hot enough). And this lower current have quite easy explanation: when you operate an inductor ballast at the same voltage, but 20% higher frequency, it's impedance will be 20% higher (Xl=2*Pi*Freq*L), what mean ~20% lower circuit current, assume all the voltages stay the same. In reality the current would drop even further, as at first the ballast will operate at lower magnetic flux, so it will be less saturated, what mean higher inductance and as second, the already lower current causes higher voltage across the lamp, so a bit less remains for the ballast.
So what to do?
First take an A-meter and measure the circuit current. If I remember well, it should be 0.45A (see ballast label, there would be the correct number)
Second, find some small ballasts (230V T5 fluorescents,...) and connect them parallel, so the total current would match the rated lamp current (on the SOX ballast label)
Or (based on a brief calculation I just did), use three "PL-S7..11W" chokes in parallel instead of the SOX ballast, on 60Hz it should lead about 0.42A (what is way closer to the 0.45A than you are now).

Or maybe the easiest thing: Find proper SOX26W ballast for 120V/60Hz.

And just a note, the US/CAN Code does not allow the lighting circuit to be operated from 240V anyway (you would need quite special installation items for that to be at least reasonably safe, mainly because with 240V there is no Neutral, both wires are phase; so you would need two pole switch, two pole circuit breaker,...)...
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light finatic
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #12 on: January 06, 2014, 06:50:56 PM » Author: light finatic
The setup works on 240v 60HZ.    There has never been  120 volt 26 watt control gear made ever ( not even electronic ). :-\
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #13 on: January 07, 2014, 12:21:12 AM » Author: Medved
But for the 60Hz you will need 20% lower inductance for the ballast, that is the problem. In order for the setup to work, you will have to bring the current back to 0.45A. So one possibility is to assemble the inductors so, it will lead to this current.
Or if you will be able to find an electronic ballast, even "50Hz" one, it will work for you. The frequency does not matter for the electronic, provided it is above the minimum the input rectifier filter is designed for (so above 50Hz) and below the limit of the regular rectifier diodes (~400Hz), you may use it.


If you say there has never been a SOX-E26W ballast on 120V, that could only mean this lamp was never introduced in the US. Because the 120V input will be the first (and most likely the only) type introduced.


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light finatic
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Re: Question about control gear « Reply #14 on: January 07, 2014, 07:36:38 PM » Author: light finatic
what??? >:(
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