Author Topic: Lighting powered by an inverter  (Read 20086 times)
ace100w120v
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #15 on: September 04, 2016, 07:25:25 PM » Author: ace100w120v
I just had the random thought: How is power factor affected by MSW vs. "grid" power I wonder?
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wattMaster
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #16 on: September 04, 2016, 07:26:34 PM » Author: wattMaster
I just had the random thought: How is power factor affected by MSW vs. "grid" power I wonder?
I think they have a capacitor, and the MSW essentially makes it overdriven.
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Medved
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #17 on: September 08, 2016, 01:19:46 AM » Author: Medved
I just had the random thought: How is power factor affected by MSW vs. "grid" power I wonder?

The MSW was intended to work mainly with rectifiers without any PFC circuit.
Most PFC front ends feature rather high capacitances on the input (the filters supposed to suppress the HF ripple from the PFC) and this capacitoir then causes high pulse currents when operating on the sharp edges of MSW, so overloading the output stage.

I think with the spread of the PFC, the inverter designss will have to go to real sinewave output even for the cheapest models (because otherwise they just simply won't work)...
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Ash
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #18 on: September 08, 2016, 05:28:35 PM » Author: Ash
What about MSW inverters that have big 50Hz transformer as the step up / output transformer ? (and not the HVDC + H bridge system)

Thats how most cheap UPSes here done and they appear to not complain with active PFC PSUs
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #19 on: September 08, 2016, 09:12:19 PM » Author: wattMaster
Most PFC front ends feature rather high capacitances on the input (the filters supposed to suppress the HF ripple from the PFC) and this capacitoir then causes high pulse currents when operating on the sharp edges of MSW, so overloading the output stage.
I would expect that electronic ballasts would compensate for this, as they be "smart", and control the power.
The real problems come when you have a "dumb" magnetic ballast.
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Medved
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #20 on: September 09, 2016, 02:35:22 AM » Author: Medved
I would expect that electronic ballasts would compensate for this, as they be "smart", and control the power.

Compensate for what? Voltages with the MSW are the same as with sinewave. The problem are the high charging currents of the filter capacitors. And that is physically impossible to compensate at all, it just loads the components and mainly the inverter.
The thing is, the NPF rectifiers suffice really only with rather small RF decoupling capacitors (10..100nF or so), but when an active PFC is involved, it needs a filter for the inpuit PFC ripple and that is in uF range. That means more than 10x the current spikes, with all the consequences.


The real problems come when you have a "dumb" magnetic ballast.

That is, because the MSW is designed to supply just the rectifier type of load, with a provision of not driving the tranformer flux and incandescent lamps above what is present with the sinewave. (IT equipment of that time, plus few incandescents for light).

The thing is, it may appear to work well, but behind the surface it may be deteriorating to a failure...
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #21 on: October 23, 2016, 07:24:14 PM » Author: wattMaster
Today, I tried my HPS bucket light on a MSW inverter, and it worked just fine with lots of humming/buzzing.
That's with the ballast normally being nearly silent on regular sine-wave power.
It should mean that there is a good amount of varnish, but how loud can it be when the varnish wears off?
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ace100w120v
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #22 on: October 23, 2016, 07:28:58 PM » Author: ace100w120v
Probably louder.  Your results sound exactly like what I dealt with.
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #23 on: January 28, 2017, 08:36:15 AM » Author: wattMaster
How does MSW affect CWA/CWI ballasts? It might not work well because there is usually a capacitor.
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randacnam7321
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #24 on: February 06, 2017, 12:56:47 AM » Author: randacnam7321
The inductive kick from magnetic ballasts when the modified square wave output of such an inverter drops to 0V at the end of each half cycle pulse gronking the inverter H bridge is the most likely problem I see happening.
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Medved
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #25 on: February 06, 2017, 03:27:46 AM » Author: Medved
The inductive kick from magnetic ballasts when the modified square wave output of such an inverter drops to 0V at the end of each half cycle pulse gronking the inverter H bridge is the most likely problem I see happening.

The inductive kick is limited in any ballast type. The inductance is voltage driven

Decent inverters always actively apply a short circuit for the "0V" phase.
This is the reason, why they always have at least 4 transistors:
The topologies using output transformer use two to drive the center tapped primary of the output transformer to the battery during the positive/negative pulse sections, the other two are the shorting switches, usually sources to GND, with separate winding connected between the drains.
With the ones using high frequency converter to step up the DC voltage to 320VDC (for a "230V" output; for "120V" it would be about 170V) first, the output is driven from a 4 transistor H-bridge (some use the same on the ELV side to drive the single winding primary).

And even when taking the many "DYI" topologies using just two transistors driving the CT primary, the "inductive kick" is limited by the body diode of the inactive transistor anyway, so it can not exceed the 320V as well. But these are usually designed to provide square wave AC (no 0V intermediate section), so have quite limited use. Such topology will resort to square wave operation even when operated without any load and unless the transformer is designed for that (so double the size), it will immediate saturate it and so destroy the circuit after few seconds of no load operation. The need for twice the transformer size is the main reason, why even the cheapest designs used the shorting switches, to really enforce the "0V" section where it should be - the extra winding and two transistors are way cheaper than a double sized transformer...
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #26 on: February 14, 2017, 10:52:11 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
I've wondered about this myself...but I also figure that if I ever need an inverter, I'd get a PSW (Pure Sine Wave) one to avoid problems.

Personally I'd love to go part-solar (something that would obviously need an inverter), but I really don't know enough about it(solar), or if what I'd want even exists. .but that'd really be a subject for a whole different thread :lol:
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ace100w120v
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #27 on: February 14, 2017, 11:16:55 PM » Author: ace100w120v
Pure sine wave is ideal for sure but I still run MSW back home.  A few things it will cook are TRIAC dimmer switches and power tool battery chargers, other than that I've run every fluorescent type you can think of on it.

Xmaslightguy, as for another thread on the subject, a buddy of mine here, Icefoglights, started a thread about going off-grid at a place he has with no city power available, throwing ideas around. 
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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #28 on: February 14, 2017, 11:34:51 PM » Author: xmaslightguy
Frying Triac based circuits would be a problem with my Christmas lighting setup (but that's something I would only ever want on mains power anyway .lol. )

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Sounds like the perfect thread for solar related stuff .. I'll have to go find it :)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 11:38:03 PM by xmaslightguy » Logged

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Re: Lighting powered by an inverter « Reply #29 on: February 15, 2017, 11:38:42 AM » Author: wattMaster
Sounds like MSW works well with CWA/CWI capacitors.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2017, 03:58:46 PM by wattMaster » Logged

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