Author Topic: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures  (Read 2640 times)
Whitewolf
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12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « on: March 31, 2017, 09:39:29 PM » Author: Whitewolf
all the years i have seen battery operated fluorescent fixtures, and when you turn the switch on, they come on instantly, but do they have STARTERS on them?.... i mean preheat models uses a starters works on AC.... but on 12 VOLTS DC?

here's the video link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSJUAd3OQaI
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 11:57:03 PM » Author: dor123
Battery operated fluorescent fixtures, usually uses a DC inverter or a voltage doubler. It is impossible to make a battery operated magnetic ballast.
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 12:20:15 AM » Author: Whitewolf
That's what I thought too, probably got it plugged in ac and trying to show it runs on 12 volts
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 05:32:24 AM » Author: Ash
At higher voltages (order of 100V for F20T12, maybe 60..80V for F8T5) it is possible to run Fluorescents on DC with plain choke and starter. It requires also resistive ballast in series with the choke, as the choke does provide the starting impulse alright but does not provide ballasting on DC. Incandescent lamp can be used for this role

At 12V there is no way to light up the starter glow lamp, so there must be some sort of conversion to higher voltage first, so some oscillator/converter. What happens later is up to anyone's guess. Many of such small oscillator converter circuits have fairly high output impedance and high OCV, so the lamp might be wired to it as is without additional components. Thats how it is done in modern battery lanterns and emergency lights. In this case maybe the starter is just added across the lamp's filaments as usual, even if it would not be necessary or able to stay off after the lamp strikes anyway (with a good lamp). Maybe there is some choke added too if a more powerfull converter is used, but most such converters run at few 100's Hz and up, 230V choke would be way too big inductance for that

Forget the voltage doubler - it cannot work here, and even if it would 24V is still too low
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 09:45:17 AM » Author: Whitewolf
that's what i figured ash
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 12:08:50 PM » Author: Lodge
Maybe there is some choke added too if a more powerfull converter is used

And it would be a bad design if they made an inverter drive circuit to big that it requires a choke, because that would just waste power which is a major issue to anyone using batteries, and also increase the cost of the lamp..   
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 03:11:01 PM » Author: Ash
Who said it is factory made ? For all we know there might be a 12V "car lighter socket" converter tucked inside, wired to the standard gear....
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 02:48:14 AM » Author: toomanybulbs
several members here have browning portalamps.
magnetic ballast with a vibrator.
no sand.
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Medved
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #8 on: April 18, 2017, 09:52:49 AM » Author: Medved
several members here have browning portalamps.
magnetic ballast with a vibrator.
no sand.

In that respect all DC ballasts are "the same":
The only difference is the operating frequency, the vibrator can not operate much above some 100Hz or so, while a semiconductor switch can operate at 10's of kHz. In both cases it uses some switch to convert the DC into some form of AC, which then passes through a transformer.

The concept the Browning uses is one of the worsts: The lamp current is really hugely dependent on the battery. But that is the cost to pay when being so limited by the available components - in 50's you really could not do better with reasonable size and budget.

The single transistor inverters (as topology; do not confuse with how they use to be rated) perform way better - the lamp power is way less dependent on the battery voltage. The output DC current component could be quite reasonably tackled by careful thermal design of the fixture.

Of course, the modern commercial vehicle converters are the best, but are way more complex (speaking about complexity, when you draw the complete schematic, include the inner circuits of the used IC's).


But either from these has anything common with the underdriving problems with the battery lanterns. There the problem come mainly from the desire to get as much possible battery runtime with a given light output at the minimum TCO (total cost of ownership). Because the batteries (assume the single use cells) are the most expensive part of the TCO, everything is designed around sufficing with as little power. At the power levels mostly used there, it is better to use longer higher power lamp and underdrive it, not lower power one and drive it at its rated power (with F8T5 you suffice with 2..3W and get the same light output as with F4T5 driven full power, so 4W; obviously the first will give you longer battery life). Of course, it has huge impact on the lamp life (10khour -> 100's hour), but that is an acceptable cost to pay when saving on the batteries.

With lamps intended for use with running motor vehicles (the bus, trains,...) the most expensive part are the lamps, so there the ballasts are made so, they really drive the lamps at rated power, use decent preheats or so, regardless if that costs some extra power, the lamp life is just the priority there.

So you may find a perfectly symmetrical ballast with no DC component within an emergency lantern, which kills the lamps one by one (because the F6T5 is driven there at about 2W or so).
Compare to a single transistor asymmetric 24V bus ballast driving a F20T12 at about 18W, with significant DC component, yet the lamp life there exceeds the normal mains rating even when they are much more frequently switched in the bus application (the filaments get external heating power all the time, even when it eats up some power from the arc, so lower the light output).

The browning was designed more around the "bus" lines, but the consequence is, the power input is around 20W at 14V (engine running), but lamp power just barely 8W at 12V input, going way lower when the battery discharges further. But at that time it was quite good success, to achieve at least this...
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 10:38:19 AM » Author: Ash
Couldnt the same single transistor oscillator be made with a valve ?
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Medved
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 03:16:47 AM » Author: Medved
Well, theoretically yes, but the efficiency is so low it is useless as a ballast (the Browning vibrator concept is quite inefficient by todays standards, yet it would be vastly superior king compare to any vacuum tube based inverter for that use)...
It would need really high DC voltage to start with, just to get at least some power out of it - you can not make a switching valve with voltage drop below about 15..20V, even when you add some gas fill. So that mean the input voltage would have to be in excess of 100V to have at least some efficency, yet still neglecting the heater power. And at 100V DC you may drive most fluorescents using just a series resistor ballast, all that with way higher efficiency than the vacuum tube inverter could ever reach.

Well, there are vacuum tube inverters operating at 90%+ efficiencies, but these start from 3..10kVDC and power levels of 100'skW and above (mainly for an industrial induction heating; the microwave's magnetron belong to that kind of applications). The home microwave oven has electrically about 2..3kW magnetron (operating at about 40% duty ratio due to the way how its power supply is made there), yet it has efficiency just around 60..70%.
Nothing really usable for battery powered lighting.
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Re: 12 volts fluorescent light fixtures « Reply #11 on: April 19, 2017, 02:13:58 PM » Author: Lodge
What Medved said and most low power devices back in the day used a vibrator to get the needed higher voltages to operate the valves, older car radios that used valves also had a vibrator in them, they are simple and efficient when using limited technology to remove the need for odd ball DM536 batteries (it's a 90V and 1.5V battery or a set of B104 45V batteries to get your 90 volts)     
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