Author Topic: US HID lamps  (Read 1175 times)
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US HID lamps « on: July 26, 2020, 10:31:50 AM » Author: LightsDelight
Does anybody know the lamp voltage & current for HID lamps made for the US market. Would there be any US market lamps that can be used in the EU market (240V 50Hz). I think that some are the same but I have discovered that some HPS lamps have 55V arc voltage. Cheers guys! :hps:
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #1 on: July 26, 2020, 10:49:54 AM » Author: sox35
The only ones I have experience of are the US 100W MV lamps, which can be operated on 70W HPS ballasts (without the ignitor, of course  :lol:)

If I think of any more, I'll let you know.
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #2 on: July 26, 2020, 10:54:16 AM » Author: Medved
MV lamps are the same as European of the same wattage, if the same wattage exist. If it does not exist, you have to improvise.

HPS 150W S55 and lower wattages are 55V (in order to suffice with just a series choke on 120V).
    150W S56 happens to be tye same spec as European 150W HPS
    Higer wattages are not compatible with anything European.

MH probe start were designed along the same specs as MV, but need higher OCV (300+ V), so wont work properly on just a series choke ballast on 230V.

Pulse start MHs use to be the same electrical specs as European, but you should double check each lamp type separately, as there is quite some mess worldwide (even in Europe alone there were two kinds of incompatible 400W lamp specs, however in the last decades most makers made lamps suitable for both ballast types)
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2020, 11:26:48 AM » Author: LightsDelight
Medved - I have had a look at the MV lamp voltages and the do seem to match up like you mentioned. So I can just buy some clear ones and us them here.

I have heard of the S56 HPS lamp and I have seen some pages that had the voltage and currents for higher lamps around 400W being around 100V so I assumed it was compatible on our gear.

I have had some experience with putting MH lamps on MV gear and having them not start unless there was an Igniter
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2020, 11:38:59 AM » Author: dor123
Mercury: 100W MV can safely run on a 70W HPS ballast without ignitor. 40/50W MV lamps can be operated on European 50W MV ballast,  250W and 400W MV lamps can be operated on European MV ballasts, but not the 700W and the 1000W ones, as these have 250V lamp voltage. The 1000W can be operate on a 480V 3PH 1000W ballast. 175W can't be operated at any European ballast.
HPS: S55 150W and down can't operate on European chokes, as they have 55V lamp voltage. S56 150W and 250W and 400W are compatible with European HPS ballasts. S52 1000W however have 250V lamp voltage, so you need a 480V 3PH 1000W ballast + special ignitor for 480V 3PH ballasts.
Probe-start MH: 175W MH can't be operated on any European ballast. 250W and 400W can be operated on an European MV ballast with two wires 750-1000V ignitor. 1000W MH requires a 480V 3PH 1000W ballast, as its voltage is 250V. 1500-1650V have no compatible European ballast.
Pulse-start MH: All of them can be operated on European HPS ballasts + ignitor or electronic HID ballasts.
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #5 on: July 27, 2020, 08:11:07 PM » Author: James
US HPS lamps are not compatible at all with EU ballasts for any wattage, even if they are nominally the same arc voltage.  USA generally uses constant wattage ballasts, which are relatively immune to lamp voltage changes. Because of this the manufacturing tolerances for lamp voltage of USA HPS lamps are quite huge compared to the EU types.  If used on the EU choke ballasts, which are highly sensitive to lamp voltage variations, those lamps will be proportionally over or under run.  They will run at different power with consequences for lumens, colour consistency and life.  EU HPS lamps can however be used on USA ballasts, because their voltage will always be much closer to the nominal value.
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #6 on: July 28, 2020, 09:58:28 AM » Author: Medved
US HPS lamps are not compatible at all with EU ballasts for any wattage, even if they are nominally the same arc voltage.  USA generally uses constant wattage ballasts, which are relatively immune to lamp voltage changes. Because of this the manufacturing tolerances for lamp voltage of USA HPS lamps are quite huge compared to the EU types.  If used on the EU choke ballasts, which are highly sensitive to lamp voltage variations, those lamps will be proportionally over or under run.  They will run at different power with consequences for lumens, colour consistency and life.  EU HPS lamps can however be used on USA ballasts, because their voltage will always be much closer to the nominal value.

Indeed, I've ignored the thermal characteristic differences between lamps designed for CWA (US 150W and above) vs series choke (EU, US 55V types) ballasts.

There is an obstacle in using Europen lamps on US CWA ballasts as well:
The CWA is a constant current source (not constant power, the name is msleading in this context). The consequence is, if the arc voltage rises due to any reason (e.g. arctube pressure increases), the real power delivered to the lamp increases as well. With a saturated vapor lamp (where the pressure so voltage strongly depends on the temperature) it then very strongly tend to form a strong thermal feedback, which may easily lead to thermal instabilities (thermal runaway so cycling,...).
So the US lamps have to have the arc voltage very independent on the exact arc power, in order to avoid thermal instabilities (common technique is to put the amalgam reservoir rather far away from the arc, so its temperature so fill pressure is not that much affected by the arc power). But whatever way is used to achieve the thermal stability, it yields to greater tolerance of the arc voltage of these lamps (not only initial, but mainly the voltage is drifting as the lamps age; this is what James is talking about), but the CWA can handle that voltage tolerance well, so no problem on CWA.

The series choke ballast used in Europe provides quite a slope (uses slightly saturated core), which lowers the current when the arc voltage rises (e.g. because of arctube temperature), so forms a kind of negative feedback, thermally stabilizing the system back. But it has quite narrow voltage range to maintain reasonable output power and arc stability, so requires narrow tolerance of the arc voltage. Not that big deal, if the thermal dependence is not a problem with series choke ballast. In fact the thermal feedback of European lamps helps here - with the sloping ballast characteristic it maintains just the sweet spot operating temperature/voltage point, so as the lamp ages, the system just compensates by the varying temperature all drifts and tolerances within the lamp itself.

So to use US "CWA" lamps on a series choke, you would need good luck for the lamp to have the arc voltage within the ballast range to work.
And when using European lamps on CWA, you get frequent thermal runaway problems, leading to lamp cycling and early destruction (by arctube overheating and overpressure).
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #7 on: July 28, 2020, 10:01:54 AM » Author: sox35
So the upshot of all this is I need to get some US ballasts. Fortunately the US spec inverter I have will run up to a 400W continuous load and it's pure sine wave output at 60Hz  8)
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #8 on: September 19, 2020, 06:27:30 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
I wonder if a US CWA ballast would have to be replaced frequently if a european HPS lamp is used on such ballast?
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #9 on: February 04, 2021, 01:25:21 PM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
From what I understand, I have figured out that North American low wattage high pressure sodium lamps from 35w S76 to 150w S55 can be operated in series pairs on regular European high pressure sodium series chokes with the following compatibilities:

2 35w S76 high pressure sodium lamps in series on a European 50w high pressure sodium series choke and superimposed or impulser ignitor

2 50w S68 high pressure sodium lamps in series on a European 100w high pressure sodium series choke and superimposed or impulser ignitor

2 70w S62 high pressure sodium lamps in series on 2 European 50w high pressure sodium series chokes wired in parallel with a superimposed or impulser ignitor

2 100w S54 high pressure sodium lamps in series on 2 European 70w high pressure sodium series chokes wired in parallel with a superimposed or impulser ignitor

2 150w S55 high pressure sodium lamps in series on a European 250w high pressure sodium series choke and superimposed or impulser ignitor

For operation of North American low wattage high pressure sodium lamps except 150w S56 in single lamp configurations, here are the following compatibilities I devised:

35w S76 high pressure sodium lamp on 2 18w T8/20w T12 fluorescent chokes wired in parallel and a superimposed ignitor

50w S68 high pressure sodium lamp on 3 18w T8/20w T12 fluorescent chokes wired in parallel and a superimposed ignitor

70w S62 high pressure sodium lamp on 4 18w T8/20w T12 fluorescent chokes wired in parallel and a superimposed ignitor

100w S54 high pressure sodium lamp on 6 18w T8/20w T12 fluorescent chokes wired in parallel and a superimposed ignitor

150w S55 high pressure sodium lamp on 9 18w T8/20w T12 fluorescent chokes wired in parallel and a superimposed ignitor

Note that all fluorescent chokes I mentioned are assumed to be designed for 220v-240v mains supplies.
 
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 03:13:52 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Indeed, I've ignored the thermal characteristic differences between lamps designed for CWA (US 150W and above) vs series choke (EU, US 55V types) ballasts.

There is an obstacle in using Europen lamps on US CWA ballasts as well:
The CWA is a constant current source (not constant power, the name is msleading in this context). The consequence is, if the arc voltage rises due to any reason (e.g. arctube pressure increases), the real power delivered to the lamp increases as well. With a saturated vapor lamp (where the pressure so voltage strongly depends on the temperature) it then very strongly tend to form a strong thermal feedback, which may easily lead to thermal instabilities (thermal runaway so cycling,...).
So the US lamps have to have the arc voltage very independent on the exact arc power, in order to avoid thermal instabilities (common technique is to put the amalgam reservoir rather far away from the arc, so its temperature so fill pressure is not that much affected by the arc power). But whatever way is used to achieve the thermal stability, it yields to greater tolerance of the arc voltage of these lamps (not only initial, but mainly the voltage is drifting as the lamps age; this is what James is talking about), but the CWA can handle that voltage tolerance well, so no problem on CWA.

The series choke ballast used in Europe provides quite a slope (uses slightly saturated core), which lowers the current when the arc voltage rises (e.g. because of arctube temperature), so forms a kind of negative feedback, thermally stabilizing the system back. But it has quite narrow voltage range to maintain reasonable output power and arc stability, so requires narrow tolerance of the arc voltage. Not that big deal, if the thermal dependence is not a problem with series choke ballast. In fact the thermal feedback of European lamps helps here - with the sloping ballast characteristic it maintains just the sweet spot operating temperature/voltage point, so as the lamp ages, the system just compensates by the varying temperature all drifts and tolerances within the lamp itself.

So to use US "CWA" lamps on a series choke, you would need good luck for the lamp to have the arc voltage within the ballast range to work.
And when using European lamps on CWA, you get frequent thermal runaway problems, leading to lamp cycling and early destruction (by arctube overheating and overpressure).

Just to let you know, Medved, there actually were some North American fixtures that actually used reactor/choke ballasts for 200w S66, 250w S50, 310w S67, and 400w S51 high pressure sodium lamps from what I understand. Here is an example of a 240v 60hz reactor/choke ballast intended for North American 200w S66 high pressure sodium lamps:

https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=6493&pos=4&pid=195028

Do you think that the ballast has a flawed design?
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DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 02:33:36 PM » Author: Medved
Just to let you know, Medved, there actually were some North American fixtures that actually used reactor/choke ballasts for 200w S66, 250w S50, 310w S67, and 400w S51 high pressure sodium lamps from what I understand. Here is an example of a 240v 60hz reactor/choke ballast intended for North American 200w S66 high pressure sodium lamps:

Why shoudn't be? The fact these are series choke does not mean they are of the same characteristic as European ballasts, so suitable for European lamps. Even when they would be made by some European maker using ballast manufacture style so common in Europe.
Once it is designed for US spec lamps, it will for sure suit the US lamps, but may well be completely unsuitable for European lamps.



https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=6493&pos=4&pid=195028

Do you think that the ballast has a flawed design?

Did not understand, what is "flawed" there? It is designed to operate on 244V, lamp suffices with 244V OCV (when ignitor ignored), so it is a matter of the choke design to make the characteristic that lamp need. I see no flaw there.
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 01:43:00 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Indeed, I've ignored the thermal characteristic differences between lamps designed for CWA (US 150W and above) vs series choke (EU, US 55V types) ballasts.

There is an obstacle in using Europen lamps on US CWA ballasts as well:
The CWA is a constant current source (not constant power, the name is msleading in this context). The consequence is, if the arc voltage rises due to any reason (e.g. arctube pressure increases), the real power delivered to the lamp increases as well. With a saturated vapor lamp (where the pressure so voltage strongly depends on the temperature) it then very strongly tend to form a strong thermal feedback, which may easily lead to thermal instabilities (thermal runaway so cycling,...).
So the US lamps have to have the arc voltage very independent on the exact arc power, in order to avoid thermal instabilities (common technique is to put the amalgam reservoir rather far away from the arc, so its temperature so fill pressure is not that much affected by the arc power). But whatever way is used to achieve the thermal stability, it yields to greater tolerance of the arc voltage of these lamps (not only initial, but mainly the voltage is drifting as the lamps age; this is what James is talking about), but the CWA can handle that voltage tolerance well, so no problem on CWA.

The series choke ballast used in Europe provides quite a slope (uses slightly saturated core), which lowers the current when the arc voltage rises (e.g. because of arctube temperature), so forms a kind of negative feedback, thermally stabilizing the system back. But it has quite narrow voltage range to maintain reasonable output power and arc stability, so requires narrow tolerance of the arc voltage. Not that big deal, if the thermal dependence is not a problem with series choke ballast. In fact the thermal feedback of European lamps helps here - with the sloping ballast characteristic it maintains just the sweet spot operating temperature/voltage point, so as the lamp ages, the system just compensates by the varying temperature all drifts and tolerances within the lamp itself.

So to use US "CWA" lamps on a series choke, you would need good luck for the lamp to have the arc voltage within the ballast range to work.
And when using European lamps on CWA, you get frequent thermal runaway problems, leading to lamp cycling and early destruction (by arctube overheating and overpressure).

In addition, Medved, I found out that Mexico actually has some dedicated 127v/220v 60hz dual tap CWA ballasts and 127v/220v/240v tri tap CWA ballasts intended for European high pressure sodium lamps in 70w, 100w, and 150w and I also found out that a Mexican Philips catalog also notes that a European 250w high pressure sodium lamp can also safely operate on a North American 250w S50 high pressure sodium CWA ballast and LG member Silverliner actually says that you can safely run European high pressure sodium lamps on CWA gear according to this quote:

“You can run European HPS lamps on USA ballasts just fine, lol. All HPS lamps have voltage rise over life. Dor123 was referring to HPS retrofit lamps for
mercury ballasts. There shouldn’t be issues running European standard HPS lamps in 250w and up because they share the same electrical values. Lower wattage HPS lamps are different as ours are low voltage types designed for 120v chokes. Theirs are more like our low wattage MH lamps.”
 
Here is the post on where I sourced Silverliner’s quote about running European high pressure sodium lamps on CWA ballasts:

https://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=3531&pos=33&pid=157797
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DISCLAIMER: THE EXPERIMENTS THAT I CONDUCT INVOLVING UNUSUAL LAMP/BALLAST COMBINATIONS SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED UNLESS YOU HAVE THE PROPER KNOWLEDGE. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INJURIES.

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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #13 on: May 05, 2021, 03:24:08 AM » Author: WorldwideHIDCollectorUSA
Does anybody know the lamp voltage & current for HID lamps made for the US market. Would there be any US market lamps that can be used in the EU market (240V 50Hz). I think that some are the same but I have discovered that some HPS lamps have 55V arc voltage. Cheers guys! :hps:

@LightsDelight, to answer your question about the arc voltages and currents of North American HID lamps, here is the list that I compiled:

Medium/High Pressure Mercury Vapor
40w    – H45 90v 0.53a
50w    – H46 96v 0.6a
75w    – H43 130v 0.66a
80w         – H95 115v 0.8a
100w    – H38/H44/H4 130v 0.85a
125w       – H42 125v 1.15a
175w    – H39/H22 130v 1.5a
250w    – H37/H5 130v 2.1a
400w    – H33/H25/H1 135v 3.2a
425w       – H40/H17 265v 1.7a
700w    – H35/H18 265v 2.8a
1000w    – H34/H12 135v 8.0a
1000w    – H36/H15 265v 4.0a

Metal Halide (Red's Probe Start, Rest's Pulse Start)
20w    – M175 100v 0.2a
22w    – M130 85v 0.6a
35/39w    – M130 85v 0.6a
50w    – M110/M148 85v 0.8a
70w    – M98/M143/M139 90v 1.0a
100w    – M90/M140 100v 1.2a
125w    – M150 125v 1.15a
150w    – M102/M142 100v 1.8a
175w    – M57 (M107 for 150w energy saving lamps) 130v 1.5a
175w    – M137/M152 130v 1.5a
200w    – M136 130v 1.6a
250w    – M58 130v 2.1a
250w    – M138/M153 130v 2.1a
300w.       – M151 130v 2.5a
320w    – M132/M154 135v 2.8a
350w    – M131 135v 2.8a
400w    – M59 (M165 for 360w energy saving lamps) 135v 3.2a
400w    – M135/M155 135v 3.2a
450w    – M144 135v 4.0a
750w    – M149 200v 4.0a
875w    – M166 ???
1000w    – M47 265v 4.0a
1000w    – M141 265v 4.0a
1500w    – M48 265v 6.2a
1650w    – M112 270v 6.6a
2000w     – M134 265v 9.2a

Double Ended Metal Halide
70w    – M85 90v 1.0a
100w    – M91 100v 1.2a
150w    – M81 100v 1.8a
250w    – M80 100v 3.0a
1500w    – M133 ???


Low Pressure Sodium Vapor (SOX only)
18w    – L69 57v 0.35a
35w    – L70 70v 0.6a
55w    – L71 100v 0.6a
90w    – L72 112v 0.95a
135w    – L73 165v 0.95a
180w    – L74 245v 0.95a

High Pressure Sodium Vapor
35w    – S76 52v 0.83a
50w    – S68 52v 1.18a
70w    – S62 52v 1.6a
100w    – S54 55v 2.1a
150w    – S55 55v 3.2a
150w    – S56 100v 1.8a
200w    – S66 100v 2.4a
250w    – S50 100v 3.0a
310w    – S67 100v 3.6a
400w    – S51 100v 4.5a
430w    – S145 100v ??a
600w    – S106 110v 6.2a
750w    – S111 120v 7.0a
1000w    – S52 250v 4.7a
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Re: US HID lamps « Reply #14 on: May 06, 2021, 02:50:09 AM » Author: James
What a fantastic overview!  This should be listed somewhere prominently on this site instead of hidden in the forums, many users would find this very useful.  I did not have time to check them all, but there is a mistake in the lamp current of the CMH 22W, which should be 100V 0.22A for the Philips.  The Philips 20W is 94V 0.215A, Osram 92V 0.22A, GE 95V 0.21A (all values for these lower wattages relate to electronic ballasts - on magnetic gear the lamp current is of course always higher due to the lower power factor, but the lower powers can't be used reliably on magnetic gear due to electrode overheating).
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