Author Topic: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014  (Read 7021 times)
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VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « on: January 25, 2013, 03:23:29 PM » Author: Silverliner
ge is closing the ravenna, ohio lamp plant in march 2014:

http://www.iuecwalocal83761.com/index.cfm?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&homeID=269842

they make HID lamps, which will be replaced by LED in the future.

they are also closing the ohio lamp plant at about the same time:

http://www.wytv.com/content/news/local/story/GE-Plans-to-Close-Warren-Lamp-Plant-in-2014/I1TM7mT6J0u86kH8IFxLnA.cspx

they make incandescent and halogen lamps which are also being phased out.

well, be prepared for a LED only future, folks.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 04:09:13 PM » Author: DetroitTwoStroke
That's not good. Apparently they are closing the Monterrey plant too.
I'm still using Sylvania halogen floods at work, and will keep buying American bulbs as long as I can. The way I look at it is simple: I am fortunate enough to have a job, and I am going to try to keep other Americans employed by spending my money on American made products as much as possible.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 04:46:20 PM » Author: paintballer22
I am not ready for an LED only future >:( >:( .
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 04:59:43 PM » Author: Silverliner
well I don't mean to sound cynical, but leds are widely believed by the industry to be a distruptive technology that could wipe out all vacuum based lighting technlogies within 10-20 years (in most applications). look at how quickly the crt tvs disappeared, and the impact is profound enough that many thrift stores in various areas won't even take crt tvs as donations! especially in europe, the crt tvs are so worthless pretty much the only way to get rid of it is to pay to have it recycled.  however i think the phase out of the crt tv is largely due to their lightweight that allows them to be made in china and have them shipped over more cheaply, and it was also pushed by the shutdown of analog broadcasting.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 06:12:44 AM by Silverliner » Logged

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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 12:38:13 AM » Author: DetroitTwoStroke
We have a Toshiba CRT TV (assembled in U.S.A.) that has been reliable for 15 years and is still used daily in my parents' room. Our living room TV is a made in China LED TV that I sometimes have to jiggle the connectors on the back to make the picture correct.

Unfortunately, I think LEDs will become common in commercial applications, which is good news for the maintenance people that will be constantly replacing them. There are LED fixtures that were installed at work, and one of them hasn't worked since it was installed. The fixtures that are always on produce a yellowish light now.
As for street lighting, I hope people (and utilities) are smart enough to realize that induction fluorescent is the most promising, not LED.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 12:52:06 AM » Author: Ash
I have a Jpapnese CRT TV that is doing its 18th year now for many hours a day. It didnt skip a heartbeat - including all the surges on the line for all those years

Have several CRT monitors too. I dont like to work in front of them for long but they are excellent when i need extra isplay or when installing a computer

As for LEDs. The problem is not the being LED - its bad engineering, its trying to push them to the max ratings instead of driving them at low current in lowtemperature, and its the wonders of made in China. If GE would convert the mentioned factories to manufacture LED chips, with god quality and good engineering, it would be way better story
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 01:42:10 AM » Author: Medved
As for street lighting, I hope people (and utilities) are smart enough to realize that induction fluorescent is the most promising, not LED.

I don't think induction is better than LED, I would rather say the opposite:
It need really high frequency drive, what mean it is no way to make the gear in different way than electronic, with components pushed to their limits. Moreover the low intensity light forces to use higher total lumen output in order to reach the same minimum illumination levels, what ask for more problematic higher power units.

On the other hand LED's could be (they are not only because the electronic drivers are "sexy" these days) easily made with series choke ballasts, what can not be beaten for the robustness against high overvoltage spikes coming from different switching events., lightning,...
And as LED's are pointy sources, it is quite easy to design the optics so the beam have the exact shape needed, so you suffice with way less lumen output for the same minimum illumination goal, so even with the rather heavy magnetic ballast style the total mass would be comparable with the induction system.

Of course this chance should be utilized at first and not dumped by the terrible engineering habits and manufacturing quality...
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 02:45:33 AM » Author: dor123
Medved: LEDs aren't designed to be a point light source. This characteristic of modern LEDs, is done how Ash said before (Operating the LEDs at max ratings [Overdriving them] and crowding them in a very small space between each LED in the lamp, fixture or lantern, with a very small heatsink, what leads to the LEDs being, in most general lighting applications, the electrical light source with the shortest life from all other electrical light sources [Except the carbon arc]).
When the LEDs are installed in the reliable way and operating reliably (Low currents, large space between each LED, and a large heatsink, so that the LEDs don't overheats anymore [Like in a stripLED for example]), they aren't behaves as a point light source anymore.
A lighting industry that is based totally on LEDs = Returning to the combustion era lighting (Although there were several types of combustion lightsource, there were all the same in the mothed of producting light: Producing a 2300K black body radiation, by a flame. Also both combustion and LED fixtures, have an unreplaceable light source [A flame in combustion lighting, LED in LED lighting], and that the lantern is the light source itself [Rather in lightbulbs, that are replaceable and the fixture/lantern only contains it, focuses it lights and throwing it to the ground]).
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 02:57:53 AM » Author: DetroitTwoStroke
Well that's true - the LED fixtures could be designed better.
But I have seen some modern fixtures of LED and induction in use. The LED fixtures are very glary while the induction lights provide a soft, even light. And while actual life depends on design and the quality of the components, induction lights are rated at 60,000 to 100,000 hours, while LEDs are rated at 20,000 to 50,000 hours.
LEDs seem to work best in low power DC operation. Flash lights, vehicle indicator lights (dashboard lights), solar lights, and battery operated emergency lights are some applications where LEDs should work perfectly because the LEDs can work on DC with a simple resistor. Personally, I think there are better technologies available for outdoor lighting, such as high pressure sodium or low pressure sodium since they provide high efficiency and long life, and can be run on reliable gear.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 03:19:52 AM » Author: dor123
DTS: But unlike induction, where only electronic ballasts can operates them (These lamps needs to operates in several MHz), LEDs that should be operated from the mains supply, can easily operated with a magnetic choke (You can actually use a magnetic halogen transformer) and than bridge rectifier + a single resistor.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 03:47:09 AM » Author: Medved
@dor: LED's alone are pointy light sources, their intensity is comparable to incandescent filaments, but single lED is of too low output (the 1W is just on the border for reliable assembly, so about 80..90lm in 5500K CRI70), so you have to use many of them for the complete task.
And then it is the way, how the LED's are assembled together, what make them diffused light source. But that is not problem of the LED's, but of the way, how they are assembled into larger module.

LED's are different light source with different characteristics, so you have to use different approach when using them for given tasks. So for streetlights, an approach used for HID (use high output source cram,med onto small space and then make a beam pattern of it via common otics) simply won't work with LED's...

Each chip should have it's own optics, so it can not be the one common lens for the complete lantern, that does not work.
But as they are small, mold the optic assembly for e.g. 28LED chip module with each LED chip having it's own lens into one piece of plastic and so get a module sufficient for 3..4m high streetlights, spaced 9..15m for small roads (with about 25W input including ballast losses and ~1800lm output of really uniform illumination - I assume you driuve the 28 "1W" leds at only 20W in total, so they won't degrade as fast).
But of course all have to be manufactured with good quality control, so the shop in the examples does not give me enough trust for reliable product (mainly the long term stability of the used materials - shape and mainly the transparency), but I want to use it as an example, how to really use the LED's.

@DetroitTwoStroke:
The induction lifetime may be rated at 50..100khours, but I'm a bit skeptical about the electronic actually making it in the real life. And even when the electronic could be made to reach that life, there is no reason, why the LED's could not - as their degradation mechanisms are exactly the same as for any semiconductor device, so the life is only a matter of design, manufacturing quality and operating conditions.
Moreover there is no means to really prove such claim with valid test - it would simply take too long and it popped out, then no manufacturer actually had any valid reliability test data for that. And this was the base, why life expectancy claims above 25khours were in fact banned in the US - as up to now all of them were proved to be false (= there was no proof of their validity).

For streetlights you have to achieve even illumination level, so equal just below the fixture, as between the poles. And that mean, then the fixture have to throw more than 10x the intensity in the 60degree angle (from vertical) than straight down. Such pattern is impossible to make without the light source being small and high intensity or with huge optics.
The best from the "vacuum technology" in this aspect are the MH's, as e.g. 6000lm unit have all light source in ~1cm ball, so to get reasonable pattern, you need ~25cm lens/reflector assembly. The second best are the HPS, which are quite long, narrow diameter. But in order to make a 5m wide strip, they still suffice with rather reasonable optics size.
LPS do not allow any reasonable optical; control due to their size, so a LPS fixture have to have ~2..3x the lumen output than HPS for the same minimum illumination level, so their application become restricted to places, where their monochromatic light is of added value (so places with frequent and dense fog,...)
Other complication with all of these is their omnidirectional character. To half of the light have to be "bended" and half returned to the opposite side. That is problem, because for the first half you would need a refractor, while for the second the reflector optic. But you can not have both without one interfering with the other one. So therefore most designs use reflectors to create the far reaching wings and fill the rest with rather direct light form the lamp. But that create ~3..4x overillumination just below (or nearby) the pole, so you end up with the need of about 2x higher raw lamp lumen output compare to the total lumens, when all the area would be lit evenly just on the specified minimum level.

The trick with LED's is, the 1x1mm size of the 1W chip make one inch lens (what is the spacing of the 1W chips) already 25x larger than the light source, to get an equivalent with 20cm induction would need a lantern about 5m in diameter...
And the LED's have yet another advantage: They emit all their light only into one half-space, so with only refractor (=lens) optics you are able to shape the beam so, it make the even stripe of light, so you really utilize nearly all of the light output, so you suffice with ~50..60% of the raw lumen output compare to the best HID's. And the even illumination would even give you better visibility.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 05:57:15 AM » Author: DetroitTwoStroke
@Medved: You make a good point, and I am also skeptical of the 100,000 hour life of induction lamps. The mass production and cost cutting often lead to flaws that cause early failure, especially when products are made with no quality control (like in China). LEDs certainly have potential, but I haven't seen them successful in anything other than low voltage - low power applications.
Although I do not like the orange light of HPS, I think it is the most economical choice for roadway lighting. It has high lumens per watt, long life, and good optics can be made for it. I prefer the white light of metal halide, but the shorter life and lower efficiency make it less ideal for roadways.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 06:09:39 AM » Author: Silverliner
wellllllllll mercury vapor lamps can maintain 80% of lumens at 60,000 hours as it has already been documented with such lamps made in the 60s-80s. they have a max life of 175,000 hours, especially the 175w mercury lamp. that blows any induction and led out of the water, clean and simple.

by the way an electrician friend of mine said his city is having problems with the induction retrofits in the city parks, the driver units keep failing. he said he is considering changing them back to hid as they fail and their warranties expire.
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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 06:11:41 AM » Author: Silverliner
by the way i have a sony 19 inch flat screen crt tv from 2004 still working like new, the only downside is that it is long and heavy and that it won't read digital signals without a converter box, but most everybody in southern california uses cable anyway.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 06:14:25 AM by Silverliner » Logged

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Re: VERY SAD NEWS!!! general electric closing two lamp plants in usa in 2014 « Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 06:42:58 AM » Author: DetroitTwoStroke
I agree with your statement about mercury lamps. I think they look great at night, especially on plants, and they cast a soft glow similar to moonlight. I am not happy about the 2016 mercury lamp ban (or any of the lamp bans) here in the U.S. There are still many mercury fixtures in use (but most are privately owned), and that proves how reliable they are.
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