Author Topic: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard?  (Read 2154 times)
dor123
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Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « on: October 07, 2013, 10:28:53 AM » Author: dor123
I want to ask which is brand of the ignitor that the Schreder Sepale come at standard because of the following reason:
When I captured this video , I've seen a HPS in one of the Schreder Seaples (You can see near the end of the video), begin to cycle on/off, but as soon as the cycling began, a train of stragne events occured:
1. After about 30 secs after the lamp extingushed, it hot restruck. As I was far from the lantern, I don't know if during these 30 secs, the ignitor tryed restrike the lamp.
2. After the lamp reached full brightness, suddenly its brightness dropped instantly to about half (50% brightness), and then the lamp turned off permanently.
Because of these strange things, I want to ask you What is the brand of this ignitor ?
This for sure can't be the Eltam smart ES-PI 1000 ignitors (I know their behaviors).
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 01:39:20 PM » Author: Michael
Schreder and other fanucturers are sourcing these components  from many different brands. It depends on in which factory the laterns are made as well on the costumers wishes. Here in Switzerland a standard Schreder fixture has ballasts and ignitors from Tridonic. But the same fixture from another country gets them from Philips or Vossloh Schwabe ect.
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 02:47:26 PM » Author: dor123
Here is a video of the cycling HPS lamp in the Schreder Sepale I've captured at here .
You can see that the lamp extingushes, ignitor restrike the lamp like any other superimposed ignitor, and the lamp restrike, but after the lamp reaches full regime, the ignitor shuts it down permanently.
So which ignitor brand tends to behave such.
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 04:32:25 PM » Author: Medved
after the lamp reaches full regime, the ignitor shuts it down permanently.
So which ignitor brand tends to behave such.

This shut down come from the lamp itself and not the ignitor: The ignitor can only generate the pulses or not, it can not do anything else.

So either the lamp extinguish on it's own, or by a ballast cut out (both could be caused by a rectifying lamp).
It could be, than the lamp start cycling, but makes only two cycles before the ignitor stop pulsing, so give up the further restrike attempts.

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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 04:51:20 AM » Author: dor123
Medved: In the earlier video, you can see that after the first cycle, once the lamp reaches full regime, its dim down to 50% (This can't be caused by the lamp itself), before shutting down permanently.
Otherwise: How the Arlen Pulsestarter can shut down EOL fluorescent lamps that successfully starts but rectifies (T12, non retrofit argon T8, short T5).
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #5 on: October 08, 2013, 11:47:38 AM » Author: Medved
Medved: In the earlier video, you can see that after the first cycle, once the lamp reaches full regime, its dim down to 50% (This can't be caused by the lamp itself), before shutting down permanently.
 It can be caused only by either the lamp or ballast, or mains problems (loose Neutral,...). And I would even guess for the latest: As the lamp warm up, it consume more current from the power factor corrected ballast input, causing it's voltage to go down. That mean the arc current goes down as well, the brightness too and the electrodes start to cool down. And that cause the arc to eventually become unstable and extinguish.


Otherwise: How the Arlen Pulsestarter can shut down EOL fluorescent lamps that successfully starts but rectifies (T12, non retrofit argon T8, short T5).

It does not, it only stop igniting, nothing else. When the fluorescent lamp is faulty, it is not able to hold the arc, so without any additional help it extinguish.
Don't be mistaken, but the ~1 second of apparent lamp lighting before the "shut down" the faulty lamp lights only on the ignition pulses (it need the starter pulses to reignite after a mains zero cross), so when the starter stop pulsing, the mains is not enough voltage to reignite the faulty lamp after the mains zero crossing. With regular glowbottle starter this lamp would be only flashing.


Neither HPS ignitor, nor the electronic "Pulsestarter" could sut down the lamp, when it burns. It could only not ignite it.

If you want to shut down the lamp, that feature have to be part of the ballast (thermal cut out, electronic ballasts,...)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 11:52:17 AM by Medved » Logged

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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 01:26:22 PM » Author: dor123
So an EOL T12, non retrofit T8 and short T5 (Which known to start and rectify and trigger the glow starter), will then just rectify non stop, before just glow dimly with brightness vibrations (Like in the case of an EOL 40W T12 on an Eltam Perfekt-Start R1/A thermal starter ballast). This will only in the energy saver T8, that the ignitor will try several times before stop operating and the lamp willn't light at all.
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 04:04:24 PM » Author: Medved
My experience is, than rectifying lamp usually lead to arc extinction, but if the arc does not extinguish, it will indeed rectify "forever"...

And I do remember one flashy T8, which rectified (real 50Hz flicker) when the starter was removed, so I would guess it will do so with the electronic starter as well...
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #8 on: October 09, 2013, 01:43:11 AM » Author: dor123
Non retrofit T8 will rectify forever, but a retrofit T8 won't stikes at all. I've seen how a T12 and a retrofit T8 behaves on an Eltam Perfekt-Start A in videos of one of the Ash: T12 keeps rectifying, retrofit T8 don't strikes at all and the thermal relay keeps opening and closing.
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Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 05:53:20 PM » Author: Ash
Medved : I observed many times that ignitors kick out HPS lamps. The lamp arc v rises untill the ignitor starts pulsing again and you see it in the lamp's light output (series of dips). In my lanterns you can even hear the ignitor ticking during those dips. And finally the lamp extinguishes in sync with one of them and not in an arbitrary time
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Re: Which brand of ignitor, the Schreder Sepale comes as standard? « Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 12:38:28 AM » Author: Medved
Medved : I observed many times that ignitors kick out HPS lamps.

That may be the impression, but what happened is exactly the opposite: The lamp arc become unstable, ignitor tries to restore it, but as the arc stability worsens, the ignitor become unable to hold it and so the lamp extinguish for good. So the ignitor actually make it somehow burning even for some time after the lamp would otherwise extinguish by itself. Therefore you observe ignitor activity just few moments before the lamp goes out.


The lamp arc v rises untill the ignitor starts pulsing again and you see it in the lamp's light output (series of dips).

Normally after the current zero cross, the arc reignite by itself. As the arctube ages, this reignition become unreliable and sometimes it fail to reignite. With this, the ignitor immediately respond and tries to reignite it, initially with success. So the only apparent outcome is, the lamp appear to dip it's brightness a bit (there are some ms of darkness).


In my lanterns you can even hear the ignitor ticking during those dips.

This is, when the lamp fail to reignite by itself, but the ignitor is still able to reignite it.

And finally the lamp extinguishes in sync with one of them and not in an arbitrary time

This is, when the ignitor is not able to reignite the main arc anymore (it may createa flash, but the discharge is not able to hold)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:42:34 AM by Medved » Logged

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