Author Topic: Do you *really* hate LED's?  (Read 18214 times)
Ash
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #15 on: February 03, 2017, 04:07:21 PM » Author: Ash
Not too bothered to make own table, but the deltas from this one are :

Induction FL lamp type

Long life available (10k+ hrs) parameter



And some more 1's. Or at least, mention partial possibility even if it is not a full 1 :



Native color versions available : Do you mean colors like R, G, B ?

 - HPS : There is one color if you want it..

 - CFL : 1



Instant start into full brightness :

 - FL : Depends on ambient temperature. With relatively high temperatures they pretty much do start into full brightness



Dimmable :

 - MV : As dimmable as all other HIDs, but suitable ballasts are not available



Extreme life available :

 - MH : 1 (EYE Twin Cera Arc)



High reliability :

 - Halogen : 1 (guess what lamp is used in car headlights)

 - MH : 1 (dont run lamps past their rated life and there wont be problems)

 - LED : 1 (nothing prevents making them good and reliable if wanted)



Doesnt cycle :

 - HPS, MH : 1 (with a suitable ignitor)



Glare free :

 - All can be (depends on luminaire design)



Can be used in reflectors :

 - All can be (reflector size matching lamp emitting area size)



Cant explode :

 - All can explode, and all can be made in a way that contains it safely
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wattMaster
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #16 on: February 18, 2017, 06:24:42 PM » Author: wattMaster
Maybe there should be a table where every light source is evaluated and compare the scores to see which light source is the overall best.
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #17 on: February 18, 2017, 06:45:02 PM » Author: Lumex120
Maybe there should be a table where every light source is evaluated and compare the scores to see which light source is the overall best.
There would be no point in doing that, everyone instantly assumes LEDs are perfect for everything and therefore would ignore this.
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #18 on: February 18, 2017, 06:46:27 PM » Author: Lumex120
incandescenthalogenMV clearMV/MBFHPS/SONMHfluorescentCFLLED
good cri110001111
very high cri available110001101
colour temperature variety000101101
native colour versions available000001101
instant start into full brightness110000001
instant "restrike" after turning off110000111
dimmable110011111
high efficacy000011101
long life (10,000+ hrs.) standard001111101
extreme life (50,000+ hrs.) available001110101
high reliability101110100
resistent to frequent switchings100000101
doesn't cycle111100111
glare free000100110
can be used in reflectors111011001
ambient temperature resistant111111000
environmental unfriendly chemicals free110000000
can't explode000000111

This overview is extremely simplified and some borderline values can be perceived differently.
Make your own table if you see particular values differently. Include your own criteria.
I'm not a LED evangelist but I simply don't see why still hate them in 2017. They're just a light source with its pros and cons. Fullstop.
CFL, fluorescent, and coated mercs can still be used with reflectors.
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dischargecraze
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #19 on: February 18, 2017, 06:47:05 PM » Author: dischargecraze
I don't hate LED's themselves. The thing I hate is Chinese garbage that doesn't live up to it's promises. I recently found an E27 LED that claimed to be a replacement for 60 watt bulbs. It had very dodgy cheap packaging with Chinese lettering on it. I bought it for €1.59 just because I had some extra money. I took it home and it gave out this purplish light and was around a 10 watt replacement. However when you look at brand named products like Osram or Philips they sell pretty good bulbs that live up to their promises. In street lighting some LED modules are very good. Like the Industria Libra LED retrofit boards. These last very long but are in such a terrible colour temperature. 6500k mostly.

They could do better on the fixture designs. I love seeing good LED street lights with bowls and refractors but seeing the cut off fixtures just make me sad. The glare is a problem with all LED lamps, you can't really look at them without getting a headace.

Conclusion, a branded LED bulb or fixture, with a good driver and at least 90+ CRI are a good competitor for fluorescent lights.
Unbranded or unknown brands can be good too. But just check it's specs and packaging carefully. Some people argue that LED's are the solution to world peace but they just aren't ready jet. I think in 5 years 90 CRI will be standard and filament bulbs have taken over the market. We'll have to see. It's all down to your own choice of light source. And we have to accept that LED is going to be seen a lot more, we are collectors, we can set up our own HID installations in the backyard!

;)
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #20 on: February 19, 2017, 07:52:44 PM » Author: fluorescent
<we are collectors, we can set up our own HID installations in the backyard!>

<Some people argue that LED's are the solution to world peace but they just aren't ready yet>

I like these quotes.


This topic has been interesting, not as much hate for LEDs as I'd anticipated!

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Lumex120
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #21 on: February 19, 2017, 11:31:31 PM » Author: Lumex120
I still fail to see why LEDs are taking off so much in the first place. I mean, in the indoor and residential market it makes sense, but compared to CMH and T5 fluorescent it doesn't really have any advantages. Philips has developed a 7900 lumen 70w CMH lamp, which would blow any equal LED out of the water, and the only real advantage LEDs have over this is the instant restrike and no warm up (but then again, modern CMH lamps can warm up in less that 15 seconds on electronic gear).
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dischargecraze
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #22 on: February 20, 2017, 09:50:47 AM » Author: dischargecraze
It probably took off this well because of it's "amazing lifespan" and it's colour rendering ability's over fluorescent lamps, which turned out to not be true at all in most cases. Metal Halide is far more superior in some cases. But it's mostly because some cities were far behind on street lighting, still using fixtures that were originally made for mercury lamps. Because HPS and MH will be phased out some time, as for fluorescent lamps, cities are already starting to replace all these fixtures with LED's, because that's written down as the future. Because moneywise, why would they install any more new HPS lanterns when the lamps are going to be phased out somewhere in the future, with it's retrofit being the less efficient MH. You have to understand it's always got something to do with saving money hence the lower wattage lanterns always being bought in. Resulting in less light, more dark spots.
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Ash
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #23 on: February 20, 2017, 10:35:26 AM » Author: Ash
Nobody except you guys have said anything about phase out of HPS and MH, of the types that pass current efficacy regulations. Besides, no evidence that the currently installed LED luminaires will even last to that time if it happens
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dischargecraze
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #24 on: February 20, 2017, 12:30:20 PM » Author: dischargecraze
Well, LED's are starting surpass lumen efficacies greater than LPS, it'll be a matter of time. Of course from the time it'll be proposed on to the actual ban will be a couple of years. LED lighting is only getting better now.
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Ash
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #25 on: February 20, 2017, 01:50:22 PM » Author: Ash
Today's light sources already have Lm efficacies such that the differences between them dont matter. Take a home application as example :

From 60W Incandescent to 13W CFL this is a significant energy saving step

From a 13W CFL to a 8W LED there is saving, but it is only few more Watts. With a double as efficient, 4W LED with same light output (which doesnt exist), it is still few Watts. It makes very little sense to even bother anymore, because not much more is left to save : The whole energy cost of 13W CFL is about $3 a year when used 4 hours a day. Its ridiculous to try to save $3/year (actually $2, because 4W LED still takes 4W) on light quality

Same logic, other numbers, for all efficient light sources in all applications
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 03:25:18 PM » Author: wattMaster
Besides, the lumen efficacy is only one (small) factor that drives the actual adoption of LEDs in the market. When comparing CFLs to LED bulbs, you also have to take into account that the latter technology (when properly designed) delivers key advantages such as a better light color, instant light output, seamless dimming, warm light color shift while dimming (that mimics GLS dimming), and other functionalities. And an incomparably better optical control of light in spot lamps, also. Many of these points also applies to other applications as well. Limiting your comparison just to the power consumption between two individual lamps is very short sighted indeed.
For a lot of applications, it doesn't matter. I can think of at least one place where any other kind of light source other than CFL would make the area feel crummy.
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #27 on: February 20, 2017, 03:51:38 PM » Author: dischargecraze
Fluorescent lamps have it's flaws. Like vaccuum loss or mercury starvation etc etc... I have some LED bulbs in my home that are way better than CFL. Fluorescent also has a weird pink tinge in WW bulbs. There is so much wrong with fluorescent, of course all the LED flaws can be pointed out so easily because it's newborn but it's unnecessary because most of all LED lamps are actually good...
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Ash
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #28 on: February 20, 2017, 04:55:54 PM » Author: Ash
The push for more efficient lamp means with full certainity that the 4W LED would be preferred over the 8W LED. While each lamp technology advances in its own way, the available technologies are cumulative : More technologies appear, more choices available to the user

If we compare that to the filament lamps : The Carbon filament lamp had long disappeared, but its advanced versions : Tungsten Incandescent, Halogen, IRC Halogen are still used to this day, allthough many other technologies exist which are better by a variety of parameters

If we compare that to the FL lamps : The Ortho lamps with 1500 hour life had long disappeared, but we have them now with good phosphors which are efficient, provide great White light, and last long time



When the choice stood between the Incandescent and the CFL, there was a 47W difference, which cost $10/year in electricity. This was some motivation for the owner to replace the lamps, even still working ones. Some liked the option of 6500K light, some didnt like the 2700K of 827 but were ready to make do with it for the energy savings, and some others chose to stay with the Incandescents for what they see as better light quality, in spite of not saving money this way

When the choice stands between the CFL and the 4W LED, there is a 9W difference. This is 5 times less significant difference than the previous time, so its weight among the other parameters leading to the choice is 5 times less significant, and at $2/year savings, the other parameters would by far be determining

One of the parameters in which the CFL is preferred is its light quality. The White LEDs dont provide what Triphosphors provide
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Re: Do you *really* hate LED's? « Reply #29 on: February 20, 2017, 06:34:19 PM » Author: RyanF40T12
Here is why LEDs are so successful.  They are simple, easy to use, are better than CFLs, and have a long life promise to them.  EXACTLY what most normal people out in the world want!  They don't care about any argument you may make against LEDs.  Why?  Because for most normal people it doesn't matter to them.  The people on this board are VERY opinionated when it comes to lighting.  Let's face it, most normal people are not going to have some huge passion in lighting and collecting light bulbs and fixtures and that is why there is not a market for it.  There IS a market for energy effeciant long life LED bulbs, which is why they are selling so well and which is why they are replacing the outdated MV, HPS, MH, Fluorescent, and Incandescent technology! NO amount of "BUT BUT BUT!" or whatever complaining you do regarding LEDs is going to amount to a hill of beans.  All you and your lighting knowledge amounts to is a few pennies out of thousands of dollars.  No offense.  You don't have to like it, but you DO have to put up with it going on all around you.  Not a dang thing you can do about it. 
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