Author Topic: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false?  (Read 1614 times)
dor123
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An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « on: February 08, 2015, 10:36:16 AM » Author: dor123
Google translated (Original hebrew version) .
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 11:57:31 AM » Author: Medved
At least how it reads in the translation, it is plain bu****it. And I don't think the translation itself is that far off. By the way it is not the first time I see such text...

The health risks cited there are not related of the exact type of light, but are the same for any light source. So when the problem was deemed as minor with present systems, just the transfer to LED's could not make it any worse. So if there is anything to worry about, it is the tendency to illuminate everything. But that is not cited there, nor it is related to LED only.

I would even guess the contrary: The LED power saving does not happen not on the efficacy alone, but solely by reducing the need of the generated total amount of light by both better optics (distributing the light better over the designated area), as well as the availability of lower power lanterns without the side effect of lower efficacy usually present with the traditional light sources (e.g. when lighting a passage under a bridge requires 2000lm of directed light, a 70W HPS giving off 6500lm was used, as no other light source meant less power; with LED's you may just install the required 2000lm).
All that lead to one thing: Less waste light, so less of the light pollution. And that means less health problems from the lack of day vs night lighting contrast.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 12:14:11 PM » Author: Roi_hartmann
I remember hearding something about dangers of leds recently in radio. At that case it was some news about study giving concern that certain kind of blue light could potentially cause degeneration in eyes and really long term exposure could cause blindness. I dont remember exact details but problem was not leds itself  but led lights tend to have much more this "dangerous" blue light than other light sources.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 06:25:25 AM » Author: Medved
@Roi:
You mean the claims like "The blue peak is dangerous...blahblah..."?
Well, a peak in the blue in the same region is with us since the first non-incandescent light sources.
And suddenly, when we have LED's, such peak "become dangerous"? Do you still believe that?

It is again the same BS, now "in light blue"...

The only thing these campaigns do (and I think it is their sole purpose): Make all the opponents of the light bulb bans, looking as idiots, so to be ignored. Nothing else.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 08:43:47 AM » Author: Roi_hartmann
@Roi:
You mean the claims like "The blue peak is dangerous...blahblah..."?
Well, a peak in the blue in the same region is with us since the first non-incandescent light sources.
And suddenly, when we have LED's, such peak "become dangerous"? Do you still believe that?

It is again the same BS, now "in light blue"...

The only thing these campaigns do (and I think it is their sole purpose): Make all the opponents of the light bulb bans, looking as idiots, so to be ignored. Nothing else.

I did some seach and it appears that the news I heard was based on article in Financial Time by Charles Wallace. Date is 29.12.2014. There seems to be paywall and Im too lazy to register but If someone wants to do that heres the link to articele http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a78d6b68-85ef-11e4-a105-00144feabdc0.html

What I found out tho was that main concerns was something called age-related macular degeneration. Not sure if this the same hazard you mentioned. Probably not something to lose you night sleep.

It could be worth of mentioning that there is probably little money and "business will" to conduct studys about hazard of something like LED ligthing. there is huge money going in that business and its like cellphones and cancer. If someone could point out clearly that cellphone usage in long term had relation to cancer that could mean huge losses of money to many people and company and severely damage that business segment. It could be like tobacco industry and hazard of smoking.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:45:57 AM by Roi_hartmann » Logged

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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 11:52:35 AM » Author: Medved
The regeneration during sleeping is indeed adversely affected by the light (the brain is programmed so, the cold light means you are in an open area, so vulnerable towards predators, so causes you to be on alert fr possible "danger", while the darkness and/or warm light means you are in the safety of your (home) cave, with the home protective fire burning. That was the truth for nearly a million years, so the evolution has "programmed" the mankind in that way, the last few 1000 years or even just the century with the colder artificial light is just way too short to overcome that...)
But the point is, it does not matter what is the light source, it is just ANY light, from WHATEVER light source, what causes the problem. Regardless if it comes from MV's, fluorescents or LED's. Or even reflected sunlight from the moon, by the way...

So just now coming and telling "the LED light causes that issue, so people should not use the LED's" is nothing else than a complete BS.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 12:52:44 PM » Author: merc
The regeneration during sleeping is indeed adversely affected by the light (the brain is programmed so, the cold light means you are in an open area, so vulnerable towards predators, so causes you to be on alert fr possible "danger", while the darkness and/or warm light means you are in the safety of your (home) cave, with the home protective fire burning.
Yeah, that's why warm white lamps (no matter what lamp type) are much more popular for home use and you can get them in every shop that sells lamps.
But you can probably get re-programmed. We've got a 6400K circline even in our living room and bedroom (for the last 10 years). When the living room one went EOL a few months ago and I needed to wait for about 10 days for a new one with a 2700K substitute lamp, it was so strange, weird and not relaxing at all!
I spent a few nights in a tent above the Arctic Circle in summer and the light at night was pretty fatiguing. Here, at about 50 deg. latitude we're used to at least 7.5 hours without sunlight (about an hour less in total darkness) but Roi might find their midsummer white nights quite normal.

So just now coming and telling "the LED light causes that issue, so people should not use the LED's" is nothing else than a complete BS.
Exactly. Moreover you can choose from a wide range of LED colour temperatures so you can choose really warm ones if they suit you best.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 11:21:19 PM » Author: Medved
Don't believe you could be "reprogrammed" so easily. The recently discovered mechanism how that exactly works quite proves that - if the response if in generation of certain hormones, they will just do their work. You would need change in the genome for that, so even when you dare to do that artificially, it would not be you, but earliest your kids benefiting from that change. And via the natural evolution way it will take 1000's of generations, so another 100's k years...
However that discovery could least to the possibility to suppress that effect artificially - via some supplements or maybe better to say prescription drugs. Those may help the people working at night, so without the ability to sleep in real darkness. But that would be the case for really special cases - I would still prefer the natural way of sleeping in the dark night...
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #8 on: April 11, 2015, 10:09:42 PM » Author: randacnam7321
It sounds like people objecting to something for the wrong reasons.  I hear the same thing with regards to smart meters and RFI from their wireless comms nubblies being a health hazard.  It isn't (waaaaaaay too low field levels for that), but such stupid arguments detract from legitimate problems with them (hacking vulnerabilities, reliability, lack of control over my mains feed, shonky billing practices, et cetera et ad infinitum).
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 12:15:09 AM » Author: Solanaceae
Some LEDs contain gallium arsenide, which is toxic, but not in the low concentrations of the LEDs themselves. The highest risk of death caused by the LEDs are probably fried drivers, IIRC.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 02:39:48 AM » Author: Ash
The article seconds what i have already thought in the past by myself, based on my own experience

Article looks correct, or at least plausible, to me



When looking at actual things under LED light, the strength and saturation of colors of FEW things i see - especially in the red side - is disproportional to what they are in reality, despite the LED having high CRI

As i guess it what happens :

LED spectrum is continuous, but consisting of only 2 bands : the peak from the chip in the blue and the wide band from the phosphor centered in the orange, both of which are high. Colors covered in the wide band area will look great, colors in the far sides not so much

Every surface (even colored) reflects somewhat all wavelengths, especially ones closer to its actual color. Say a dark red rose reflects some little orange too. Under LED it will look a bit orange-ish, since the LED light contains much more orange than red, the orange will win in the reflected light by quantity

Fluorescent spectrum is not continuous, it have few thinner peaks from the mercury and 3 thinner bands from the phosphors. Colors in the center of the spectrum will look good, colors in the ends will look darker but not of the wrong color.... Same rose may look not as bright but also not as orange

This is also pronounced in places where we (even unconsciously) evaluate how natural/unnatural something is based on minor differences in its color. When we look at other humans - at human skin color for example, minor difference in the actual color may make it look very different - Much more so than when looking at inanimate objects with slightly different colors. People may look weird under LED lighting sometimes



I feel like straining out more, and being awake less, when i am looking at stuff under LED light (and this does not have to do anytihng with light distribution pattern, i am comparing with farily well diffused LED lights)

Generally i am in the thinking that if our body can detect that something is harmfull to it, it will try to give a warning. I see the eye strain feeling as a warning of this type

The blue peak in the spectum well explains that to me

Fluorescent have few peaks too, but the difference is the FEW. There is not so much energy concentrated in a single wavelength

HPS have a single huge peak too, but orange. I use HPS commonly as work light outdoors and dont feel any eye strain or unawakeness. I think this is because yellow/orange light does not affect in us something that blue light does

Possibly the blue light triggers something in us that is supposed to act on moon light
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 02:44:38 AM by Ash » Logged
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 03:22:17 AM » Author: Medved
It's just the things you are used to see daily look in a bit different, unusual way. Once you get used to it, the brain accepts it as "one of the usual look" and stops panicking.
It is again a form of protection instinct: 1000's years ago the different look may have been caused either by something casting a shadow (Isn't that going to eat me?) or the vision was altered (Something poisonous in the air?). When nothing happen after some time, apparently nothing had "eaten you", so it is not worth panicking - and the new look get's accepted...
And of course, that is nothing special for LED's only, this problem came practically with every new light source (maybe except incandescent, as that is very similar to the fire).

And for the last note: Indeed, it is the blue component together with the dim light, what triggers what was supposed to be triggered by the moon light.
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 03:52:25 AM » Author: dor123
And what about the cancer that they mentioned in the article?
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 04:03:24 AM » Author: Medved
And what about the cancer that they mentioned in the article?

Haven't you noticed, that in all such articles about any "danger", every such "danger" discussed "may cause cancer"?
Because cancers are so little known and so feared, they are just very "popular" in all such "warning" texts.
So you may read "Drinking water may cause cancer", "Not drinking water may cause cancer", "sleeping longer than 8 hours may cause cancer", as well as "Sleeping less than 8 hours may cause cancer" and so on...
There is just no means proving ANY discussed thing MAY NOT cause one...
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Re: An article about health hazards from LED lighting: Is this true or false? « Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 05:16:52 AM » Author: Ash
I broke it up to "How things look" and "Eye strain feeling", and want to treat each thing separately :



"How things look"

The light of LED seems inferior quality to me (and in a way that is not adequately represented by its CRI rating), but this alone does not mean it has any implications besides how some things look



"Eye strain"

The warning sign is not a shadow of a big object (so warning of something external, which we can estimate and choose what to do) but the feeling of our body itself (strain, fatigue, concentration etc), those are ultimately the only ways our body can give us any feedback about its condition

Ignoring that or "getting used to" is the absolutely wrong thing to do this time

Consider another example :

Your office setup (screen height, chair height, computer peripherals position etc) is bad, and you feel strain when using it. Continuing to use it like that is allready proved to cause long run health implications. Making changes to it by trial and error until you find the correct setup will make your office work healthier

In the lighting field, so long as its "things look weird" - no problem. When it comes to strain and the like, then it is the sign that something genuinely is not right


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