Author Topic: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true?  (Read 1617 times)
dor123
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #15 on: October 01, 2018, 03:37:55 AM » Author: dor123
Generally, why MH lamps are more sensitive to longer OFF period of the mains frequency than MV lamps?
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #16 on: October 01, 2018, 05:30:38 AM » Author: Medved
Generally, why MH lamps are more sensitive to longer OFF period of the mains frequency than MV lamps?

First the decay rate of just the mercury and noble gas ions is longer than in the presence of reactive halogens (they originate from the dissociated salt molecules). So the residual ionization at the next half cycle is higher, so easier to reestablish the fat arc.
But according to my guess the major part comes from the active auxiliary ignition probe. This does not only first ignite the lamp, but as well helps to reignite the arc after each zero crossing. In MH you can not leave that active because of the electrolysis effects on the seal assembly, so you do not have that aid available. In MV is no problem to leave it active, so it is free to provide extra ions and UV already at lower voltages across the lamp. So when the voltage reaches the equilibrium (ions decay at the same rate as new are generated), there is already quite a strong ionization base to reestablish the full fat arc, so it happens way easier, resulting in lower overshoot and (with resistive very important) longer conduction angle (the part of the mains sinewave where there is a significant current in the arc).
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #17 on: October 02, 2018, 03:35:55 AM » Author: Keyless
Does anyone remember those old MH retrofit bulbs meant to go in MV sockets?
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #18 on: October 02, 2018, 05:02:51 AM » Author: dor123
The MH lamps that retrofits MV ballasts, are either probe-start MH lamps with argon-neon starting gas like the European Philips HPI-BUS, or with two starting electrodes like Iwasaki/EYE Multi-Hi-Ace.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #19 on: October 02, 2018, 05:26:07 AM » Author: Medved
The MH lamps that retrofits MV ballasts, are either probe-start MH lamps with argon-neon starting gas like the European Philips HPI-BUS, or with two starting electrodes like Iwasaki/EYE Multi-Hi-Ace.

And they work only with standard ballasts, so with a significant inductance in it. Not designed for resistive or so.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 05:28:30 AM » Author: Keyless
I really want someone to try it out though. I have a feeling...
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 08:06:18 PM » Author: Fluorescent05
I think it is impossible to make a self-ballasted MH lamp using a resistive ballast like a halogen lamp.
Not if it's probe start.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #22 on: October 08, 2018, 11:16:44 PM » Author: BlueHalide
I have experimented with attempting to ballast a MH lamp with a halogen years ago, I used a pulse start 150w MH lamp in series with linear quartz halogen, and a plasma ball/flyback driver for ignition, I tried this setup on multiple mains voltages 120v, 208v, 240v, 277v (provided by the input taps of a 1kw ballast) and multiple wattage combinations of quartz halogen. The longest runtime I achieved was on a single 500w halogen running on 277v, the MH lamp ran for a little over a minute and almost achieved full brightness, once the sodium/scandium salts began vaporizing the lamp extinguished. Probe start MH lamps do not work, for whatever reason they extinguish almost immediately upon starting.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #23 on: October 08, 2018, 11:47:29 PM » Author: Medved
I have one experiment on my list, more along the GE halarc lines, obviously not in that compact format.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #24 on: October 09, 2018, 04:28:51 AM » Author: Medved
I found my dream lamps, I have always fantasized about this  Cheesy Self Ballasted Mercury Vapor Self Ballasted Mercury Vapor


https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ED-shape-150W-Self-ballast-Metal_60417448635.html

Which leads to my next question. Has China ever produced a genuine self ballasted metal halide lamp? I found this picture which shows a lamp at top with what appears to be a halide arc tube and a ballasting linear halogen:

https://sunlecn.en.made-in-china.com/product/xvnmWkXPJuch/China-Self-Ballast-Metal-Halide-Lamps-T-JLZ-T-.html

Honestly, what are these lamps really like?



But even when the real lamps won't do according to these published specs, but rather according to what one could expect from a selfballasted MV,
the fact they are offering as low as 70W format makes me drooling...
Does someone know, if it is possible to order them somewhere a reasonable quantity (5..10) at a reasonable price for ordinary consumer mortals?
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #25 on: October 11, 2018, 08:30:17 PM » Author: Fluorescent05
I have experimented with attempting to ballast a MH lamp with a halogen years ago, I used a pulse start 150w MH lamp in series with linear quartz halogen, and a plasma ball/flyback driver for ignition, I tried this setup on multiple mains voltages 120v, 208v, 240v, 277v (provided by the input taps of a 1kw ballast) and multiple wattage combinations of quartz halogen. The longest runtime I achieved was on a single 500w halogen running on 277v, the MH lamp ran for a little over a minute and almost achieved full brightness, once the sodium/scandium salts began vaporizing the lamp extinguished. Probe start MH lamps do not work, for whatever reason they extinguish almost immediately upon starting.
That's weird, probe start MH lamps should act like mercury vapor lamps. Filament ballasted mercury vapor lamps are made.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #26 on: October 12, 2018, 03:11:04 AM » Author: Medved
That's weird, probe start MH lamps should act like mercury vapor lamps...

...only till the bi-metal switch shorts out the starting probe. And that happens just few seconds after ignition.
Once the bimetal turns ON, the lamp becomes effectively two electrode lamp, so no probe aid at all.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #27 on: October 12, 2018, 03:28:09 AM » Author: dor123
...only till the bi-metal switch shorts out the starting probe. And that happens just few seconds after ignition.
Once the bimetal turns ON, the lamp becomes effectively two electrode lamp, so no probe aid at all.

When we warmed up an Osram HQI-T 400W/N/SI for about 2 min at Eltam factory, before hot restriking it, the bi-metal was still open.
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I"m don't speak english well, and rely on online translating to write in this site.
Please forgive me if my choice of my words looks like offensive, while that isn't my intention.

I only working with the European date format (dd.mm.yyyy).

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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #28 on: October 12, 2018, 05:12:24 PM » Author: Keyless


But even when the real lamps won't do according to these published specs, but rather according to what one could expect from a selfballasted MV,
the fact they are offering as low as 70W format makes me drooling...
Does someone know, if it is possible to order them somewhere a reasonable quantity (5..10) at a reasonable price for ordinary consumer mortals?



Medeved, we are going to be best friends I think.  Grin Now you understand how I feel!

I think they also may these in coated versions. Shop around, there are more than two dozens (at least) sellers of various self ballasted lamps.

I wish these were more mainstream in the US, or at least where in the past.
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Re: I'm in heaven- is this to good to be true? « Reply #29 on: October 13, 2018, 01:29:15 AM » Author: Medved

Medeved, we are going to be best friends I think.  Grin Now you understand how I feel!

I think they also may these in coated versions. Shop around, there are more than two dozens (at least) sellers of various self ballasted lamps.

I wish these were more mainstream in the US, or at least where in the past.

For US the 120V mans is quite a limitation. It needs way more complex design and yields lower efficacy, while the incandescents are more efficient there, so using long life incandescent was often cheaper (I mean the total cost of the light, so the sum of both purchase as well as energy costs) and more practical (no hot restart delays, allowing them to be switched off when not needed for the moment, so saving some energy back).

For shopping these, I've seen them only on Alibaba, but as far as I know, Alibaba is B2B, so not designed to sell few pieces to mortals...
On their B2C AliExpress there were none at all, nor on Ebay...
I'm not interested in "standard" selfballasted ones, I'm really after just the ones with the haligen capsule ballast...
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